Leo’s Blog Comments on John Vervaeke Were Too Negative

[LSD-Rumi]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, that's where my new awakening course will come into play. It will be a deconstruction of absolutely everything, including science, Buddhism, Advaita, and nonduality.

Working on that.

haven't you already done that Leo? I don't know what else to be taught in this regard.

Edited July 19, 2022 by LSD-Rumi

[Space]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

I'm confused by your definition of awake. If people like Wilber and Schmachtenberger are not awake, then nobody is. They obviously have had awakening/enlightenment experiences, but choose not to live from that place 24/7 and follow their dharma instead. I don't see how you could claim being awake (it seems like you implicitly do), if you don't allow for any dualistic activity in someone awake.

To me Wilber is pretty well developed and certainly has some degree of permanent awakening. The level of that awakening is questionable though. I don't consider him deeply self-realized. Schmachtenberger is obviously very developed but he's stuck at Yellow/Integral. He is definitely 100% not awake, although he may have had enlightenments or ego-deaths with psychedelics in the past. But even then I doubt he's gone far with them. Mainly because basically no one has. There's like a handful of people I know of who have truly gone all the way with psychedelics. I've never even heard him talk about non-duality or non-dual consciousness which is a pretty standard prerequisite for any true mystical understanding. I should clarify, this is not a critique of either of these guys. They're fantastic and i'm enormously grateful for all they're doing right now. 

This is what a truly self-realized human being looks and talks like:

 

[Danioover9000]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He's very developed for sure.

But that's exactly why it's such a trap. You can get stuck in that high development and never realize Absolute Truth.

The better the model the bigger the problem, as they say.

All these integral Tier 2 intellectuals are very impressive humans. But none of them are awaken. And that's why I call it out. So you don't become like them.

The highest human development != Awakening

   This is also what Osho did a few times to famous saints and legends, and when asked why, he said and I paraphrase 'I do that because in your head they are perfect, forgetting they were humans too'.

[Nilsi]

34 minutes ago, Space said:

To me Wilber is pretty well developed and certainly has some degree of permanent awakening. The level of that awakening is questionable though. I don't consider him deeply self-realized. Schmachtenberger is obviously very developed but he's stuck at Yellow/Integral. He is definitely 100% not awake, although he may have had enlightenments or ego-deaths with psychedelics in the past. But even then I doubt he's gone far with them. Mainly because basically no one has. There's like a handful of people I know of who have truly gone all the way with psychedelics. I've never even heard him talk about non-duality or non-dual consciousness which is a pretty standard prerequisite for any true mystical understanding. I should clarify, this is not a critique of either of these guys. They're fantastic and i'm enormously grateful for all they're doing right now.

 

I just don't see why you guys have it in your mind, that an awakened being would talk about awakening and nothing else. I don't see myself ever teaching this stuff. You can not judge a person's awakening by what he spends his life doing.

EDIT: The guy in the video is really admirable but this is exactly the problem of this whole thing. If everybody just sat in samadhi all day, civilization would quickly collapse; hence Game B and all this utopian talk, so we can actually live like that, without having to worry that the world is gonna burn to ashes any moment.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Nilsi

[UnbornTao]

15 hours ago, Nilsi said:

That's not what I'm pointing to. I'm quite confident that if you were to sit down with Schmachtenberger and really push it, he would agree with Leos "metaphysics" completely.

Then what are you pointing to?

By "agreeing" do you mean adopting it as a belief?

What would be the point of agreeing without being directly conscious of it oneself?

I don't really know about those guys. Ken is smart and may have had enlightenment experiences. He's also pretty attached and stuck on intellect. 

Has Daniel expressed or mentioned if he's had enlightenment experiences himself? How does he talk about this subject?

Edited July 20, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Nilsi]

11 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Has Daniel said he's had enlightenment experiences himself? How does he talk about it?

He never explicitly stated that; he once talked about how he left his family behind at 18ish years old to go into the Amazon to find enlightenment; his conclusion was, that the world shall be his monestary and it's obvious that this has strongly influenced his spirituality. He has often hinted at being awake though; I think in those circles it's just not en vogue to make these things explicit and it honestly wouldn't help his credibility in trying to make something happen on such a global scale, where a lot of politics and low consciousness is involved.

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, thepixelmonk said:

Vervaeke had a good debate with Bernardo Kastrup who I'm a big fan of, hosted by the same guy that interviewed Leo, thought it might be worth mentioning:
 

 

I've watched both rounds twice. Let's just leave it at that ?

[Leo Gura]

This video here clearly shows that as smart and developed as Vervaeke is, he has no clue what consciousness is, and therefore no awakening:

 

[Space]

8 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I just don't see why you guys have it in your mind, that an awakened being would talk about awakening and nothing else. I don't see myself ever teaching this stuff. You can not judge a person's awakening by what he spends his life doing.

EDIT: The guy in the video is really admirable but this is exactly the problem of this whole thing. If everybody just sat in samadhi all day, civilization would quickly collapse; hence Game B and all this utopian talk, so we can actually live like that, without having to worry that the world is gonna burn to ashes any moment.

Thats not the reason why I think Schmachtenberger is not awake. Maybe we have a different definition for what 'awakening' is. Basically I use that word to mean some form or degree of permanent non-dual awareness and ego dissolution. It's very obvious to me when people are not awake, based on that definition. 

[Nilsi]

10 minutes ago, Space said:

Thats not the reason why I think Schmachtenberger is not awake. Maybe we have a different definition for what 'awakening' is. Basically I use that word to mean some form or degree of permanent non-dual awareness and ego dissolution. It's very obvious to me when people are not awake, based on that definition. 

We have the same definition then. Reflecting on this conversation with a fresh mind, I guess it just comes down to what you choose to see; I choose to see him this way and it's entirely consistent with all of my experiences, but if you choose to see him differently, that's cool as well. 

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This video here clearly shows that as smart and developed as Vervaeke is, he has no clue what consciousness is, and therefore no awakening:

Vervaeke said that his loyalty ultimately lies with science, which is too bad, and I honestly don't see the appeal in that at all. But Schmachtenberger is not a scientist, and that's why it is ridiculous to just throw all these people into one basket and label it "Tier 2 thinkers." I'm not going to argue for my point any further but I think you are doing a disservice to some of these people.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Nilsi said:

Vervaeke said that his loyalty ultimately lies with science

Choosing science over Truth, a grave mistake I hope none of you make.

Quote

But Schmachtenberger is not a scientist, and that's why it is ridiculous to just throw all these people into one basket and label it "Tier 2 thinkers." I'm not going to argue for my point any further but I think you are doing a disservice to some of these people.

I'm very fond of Schmachtenberger. He's more developed than me in many ways. However, his mind has been thoroughly influenced by the Ken Wilber Integral school and that entire community to the point where he cannot even say that idealism is true over materialism. He is still on the fence about that due to Wilber's 4 quadrant model, which is NOT awakening. You cannot be awake and still believe in 4 quadrants.

You have to be extremely careful with all of these Tier 2 people. Their development is so impressive it lulls you into a false sense of what the goal of this work is. The goal is not Tier 2. The goal is God. And God is not Tier 2, not Tier 3, not Turquoise, not Coral, not Integral, not New Age, not nonduality, not Zen, not Buddhism, not any of that.

And that doesn't mean there isn't lots of cool stuff to learn from the above. I just have to make sure you guys don't get stuck in that.

[Nilsi]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm very fond of Schmachtenberger. He's more developed than me in many ways. However, his mind has been thoroughly influenced by the Ken Wilber Integral school and that entire community to the point where he cannot even say that idealism is true over materialism. He is still on the fence about that due to Wilber's 4 quadrant model, which is NOT awakening. You cannot be awake and still believe in 4 quadrants.

Thats something Im wrestling with myself, but from how I understand Wilber, it seems to me that he holds Truth as transcending the 4 quadrants, but then manifesting in those, once the ego comes back (you are a self, in the world, in communion etc.). I still dont buy, that they actually believe these quadrants to have any absolute existence to them, but once you are speaking to a camera, it makes sense to stay within this framework. Personal knowledge is something entirely different.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxbfhcvzZeP_vkt5Zh6mUb4EFta2Q8IIDz

This is Wilber at his most serious and I dont see how this contradicts your work.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Nilsi

[Razard86]

12 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I just don't see why you guys have it in your mind, that an awakened being would talk about awakening and nothing else. I don't see myself ever teaching this stuff. You can not judge a person's awakening by what he spends his life doing.

EDIT: The guy in the video is really admirable but this is exactly the problem of this whole thing. If everybody just sat in samadhi all day, civilization would quickly collapse; hence Game B and all this utopian talk, so we can actually live like that, without having to worry that the world is gonna burn to ashes any moment.

Ancient Cultures got along just fine and they were deeply spiritual. This belief that civilization would collapse is a bias you have from living a modern life. 

 

[Nilsi]

8 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Ancient Cultures got along just fine and they were deeply spiritual. This belief that civilization would collapse is a bias you have from living a modern life. 

 

We are not living in an ancient society though. We already let our world go down the drains by sitting at home absorbed in social media. Imagine what would happen if everybody was blissing out all day. Civilization would collapse within days.

[Razard86]

7 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

We are not living in an ancient society though. We already let our world go down the drains by sitting at home absorbed in social media. Imagine what would happen if everybody was blissing out all day. Civilization would collapse within days.

There are many cultures we can learn from. Watch this video. Do you see how counter-intuitive reality is. The people who live the simple life have it easier than people who live with technology. Technology is supposed to make life easier...but instead it actually made life harder. Its so funny. 

My parents came from Guyana in South America and they told me that people would come together and help you build a house from scratch all you had to do is get the materials. I'm sure that era has changed now since Guyana has become more modernized.

I told my friend that technology actually makes us dumber. We get smarter at dealing with technology but dumber at dealing with nature. Its quite hilarious when you think about it.

I think eventually Tech Societies will eventually reach out to Ancient cultures and we will fuse components of both together. We are already seeing signs of this happening with Yoga and other Ancient Cultural practices being sought after.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Razard86

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Thats something Im wrestling with myself, but from how I understand Wilber, it seems to me that he holds Truth as transcending the 4 quadrants, but then manifesting in those, once the ego comes back (you are a self, in the world, in communion etc.). I still dont buy, that they actually believe these quadrants to have any absolute existence to them, but once you are speaking to a camera, it makes sense to stay within this framework. Personal knowledge is something entirely different.

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxbfhcvzZeP_vkt5Zh6mUb4EFta2Q8IIDz

This is Wilber at his most serious and I dont see how this contradicts your work.

Wilber is an impressive guy and sometimes he says very woke things, but I still feel like it isn't the pinnacle because he is overly committed to being integral.

I admire and recommend his work though. He's one of the best philosophers of all time.

But I am trying to guide you to something beyond all that.

[Leo Gura]

These threads and discussions are very important because they spell out all the advanced traps that keep you guys from full awakening.

When I prod at these teachers and intellectuals I am not doing it to be better than them, I am doing it so you can make crucial distictions that will help you reach Infinite Consciousness.

Unless you are extremely shrewd, you will get stuck at intermediate realizations.

My aim will always be to guide you to the highest possible realization.

When you finally reach it, you will understand why I did what I did, and why you resisted it.

It's not that I am better than you. I am you. But you don't understand that yet.

You are following me for a reason. Something deep in you knows that I will lead you to the highest awakening. You cannot articulate or prove it to yourself, but nonetheless you are drawn to it like a moth to the light in a sea of endless darkness.

The awakening I speak of is beyond what any human has ever communicated to you.

[Nilsi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

These threads and discussions are very important because they spell out all the advanced traps that keep you guys from full awakening.

When I prod at these teachers and intellectuals I am not doing it to be better than them, I am doing it so you can make crucial distictions that will help you reach Infinite Consciousness.

Unless you are extremely shrewd, you will get stuck at intermediate realizations.

My aim will always be to guide you to the highest possible realization.

When you finally reach it, you will understand why I did what I did and why you resisted it

Preciate it  

[mmKay]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Ancient Cultures got along just fine and they were deeply spiritual. This belief that civilization would collapse is a bias you have from living a modern life. 

 

Classic idealization of purple. Ancient cultures were extremely brutal and  would go to war witch eachother, kill all the men, enslave your children and rape the women and place your corpse skewered on a stick at the entrance of their tribe to repulse strangers.
Life is extremely complex and the bulk of people will never be satisfied with food, water, shelter and company.

Edited July 20, 2022 by mmKay