Veganism = Slave Morality?

[Nilsi]

I have been both a vegan and lately a vegetarian (supplementing with eggs) for some time now. I havent eaten meat in a while and recently thought I would try some again, just for shits and giggles. There is just something about eating some nice wild salmon or a good, clean peace of red meat that you can not get from plant products; I immediately feel more juicy and strong than I have on any kind of plant based diet.

And so what became obvious to me is that it would be almost unethical for me not to leverage animal products toward increasing my own performance.

The thing about veganism is that the moral superiority that one gets from it is almost too good not to do it; you know that if everybody lived that way (Im talking about conscious veganism here not some strawman version of it) a lot of the problems in the world would be fixed, and so you have an easy scape goat (how ironic) in people that are not as conscious in their dieting. It really is the new christianity.

I always felt strongly about Kantian ethics ("Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law") but it seems to me increasingly unethical to compormise my own potential for doing good in the world by descending to some lowest common denominator. I also always struggled to integrate Nietzschean ethics in a healthy way, but it seems clear to me that Nietzsche and Kant are just irreconcilable and one must choose between the two. There is always some privilege and superiority involved in embodying Nietzsche but to me, doing so is an even stronger moral imperative than Kants. I know way more and have way more capacity to influence and do good in the world than the average person and this is quite inevitable in a sense; there will always be a normal distribution amongst humans when it comes to knowledge, power and mental capacity and it would almost be insane for a person at the 99.99th percentile to live from Kantian ethics.

Im just a bit irritated that this is never really explicitly discussed when it comes to dietary ethics. I so admire Schmachtenberger (who really embodys Kant well I think) for being such a good role model, but even he is jacked up on all sorts of nootropics and supplements that the average person could never dream of affording. So my conclusion, unless im missing something here, is that the most conscious and ethical thing to do, if one wants to do good in the world and has the capacity to do so, is to live from a place of master morality and exercise ones will to power, even if that produces some waste and externalities in the short run and pisses people off.  

[Leo Gura]

Veganism is not going to work for every one. If it works for you, great. But if it doesn't, then go for ethically sourced meat.

The idea that everyone functions well on veganism is just factually false. Genetics are an important factor.

[8gates]

@Nilsi I think it comes down to why you are vegan.  I think most people are vegans because they want to reduce the animal suffering they cause to the maximum extent and not to feel morally superior.

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

but it seems to me increasingly unethical to compormise my own potential for doing good in the world

How will being vegan compromise your potential to do good in the world? By decreasing animal suffering aren’t you doing good?

 

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

. I know way more and have way more capacity to influence and do good in the world than the average person 

I feel like this is a dangerous train of thought to go down. The road to hell is paved with good intentions right? I think it’s especially dangerous when it allows you to justify causing harm to other beings.

Veganism is An extension of human rights right? 

i feel like slave owners back in the day/ hitler/Stalin etc  might have thought the same way. If you read w.c langers mind of hitler you’ll see that hitler justified killing the Jews/disabled in the same way(ie- it had to be done for the greater good). 

 

[8gates]

6 hours ago, Nilsi said:

o live from a place of master morality and exercise ones will to power, even if that produces some waste and externalities in the short run and pisses people off.

In the same way Jews/disabled and non aryans were an externality to hitler And the allied nations were pissed off?

 

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, 8gates said:

i feel like slave owners back in the day/ hitler/Stalin etc  might have thought the same way. If you read w.c langers mind of hitler you’ll see that hitler justified killing the Jews/disabled in the same way(ie- it had to be done for the greater good). 

Im painfully aware of that and I always try to keep myself in check but I also feel like it is kinda silly that people are so uptight about these things. There is such a thing as development and some people are just more developed than others.

Im not walking around thinking and talking like this but it is sometimes useful to remind myself that I just am more developed than then average person and with that come all kinds of moral and ethical problems and concerns.

[8gates]

@Nilsi the thing is if we make exceptions for one person wouldnt everyone want one?

im not implying that you are affected by the dunning krueger effect ,but others could be right? I think everyone(including myself) likes to think we are more consiouse/ moral/loving etc than others to a certain extent. Itll be hard to discern whos genuinely loving and consiouse and who isnt no? 

I think its safer to stay a vegan/ not cause animal suffering and do the best you can as a vegan. I think making exceptions for ourselves ,especially moral exceptions, can lead to  ugly/unloving outcomes .

[8gates]

43 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

development and some people are just more developed than others.

How can you be certain you are more developed than others? And there is development in many areas right? Maybe you have a higher iq/ better education than the average person but maybe you are less empathetic and loving , which is what i think matters most when discussing moral issues no?

Afterall the perpetrators of UNIT 731 where children and pregnant mothers were brutally experimented on were all doctors and smart scientists right.

[Thought Art]

I generally only eat plants. But, I’m loosening my vegan grip and being more open. I don’t buy milk or meat. I’ve eaten meat for the first time in the last 5 years this week past. I didn’t miss it, didn’t notice any differences. 

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, 8gates said:

@NilsiI think its safer to stay a vegan/ not cause animal suffering and do the best you can as a vegan. I think making exceptions for ourselves ,especially moral exceptions, can lead to  ugly/unloving outcomes .

That's what I used to do, but that is exactly what I mean by slave morality. I see it as morally more wrong not to exercise ones power as best as one can. But it's a tricky one and I'm wrestling with this not only in regards to diet.

[Pavement]

I do still eat meat on occasion if I’m eating out or someone else has prepared it for me. I don’t cook meat at home.  And basically I have to ‘unconsciously’ eat it without thinking. If I consciously eat meat I just imagine blood, dead bodies and suffering.  I then feel somewhat dirty after eating it and like I’ve absorbed the suffering into my body. 
I dunno, just doesn’t feel right. 

[Nilsi]

2 hours ago, 8gates said:

Maybe you have a higher iq/ better education than the average person but maybe you are less empathetic and loving , which is what i think matters most when discussing moral issues no?

I definitely approach ethics more from an intellectual perspective and not so much from an emotional one. There is a case for both and they will not lead to the same conclusions. I also definitely lack in the empathy domain which may explain why I come to such conclusions

[Nilsi]

2 minutes ago, Pavement said:

If I consciously eat meat I just imagine blood, dead bodies and suffering.  I then feel somewhat dirty after eating it and like I’ve absorbed the suffering into my body. 
I dunno, just doesn’t feel right. 

I never felt any of this. I became a vegan through logic not emotions.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Abiding to a restriction is not necessarily a Kantian deontological enforcement. It could have a Nietzschean "justification" as well, namely that your Will is the consumption of plants and contempt for eating non-vegetarian foods.

[Nilsi]

21 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Abiding to a restriction is not necessarily a Kantian deontological enforcement. It could have a Nietzschean "justification" as well, namely that your Will is the consumption of plants and contempt for eating non-vegetarian foods.

Sure, i approached it from a Kantian philosophy though, i never resented eating non-vegetarian food, I just felt it was the highest Good, but for now, I don't feel that way anymore.

[ZenAlex]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:26 PM, Leo Gura said:

Veganism is not going to work for every one. If it works for you, great. But if it doesn't, then go for ethically sourced meat.

The idea that everyone functions well on veganism is just factually false. Genetics are an important factor.

I actually agree with this somewhat, and I am a vegan.

People think it's as simple as meeting all your supposed nutritional requirements, but it's not actually that simple, everyone is different. 

I've been vegan 6.5 years, and I've sometimes been curious about trying some meat just to see if it makes me feel better.

I don't feel bad being vegan, and the worst of my issues came way before I was vegan, but you never know unless you try.

It's like the people who try these crazy diets, like frugivore or raw vegan and think that because they thrive on it, everyone will.

My mindset was at one point that as long as your environment doesn't restrict your options, veganism should work, but then I contemplated more and realised that we live in multicultural societies now, and different people have different genetic and ancestral lineages, and therefore will be more likely to thrive on certain diets, and more likely to suffer from certain health issues.

@Nilsi The only thing I can suggest is use a website like cronometer, and put your daily vegan diet in there, and it outlines all of the nutritional requirements being met or not being met by your daily diet, and maybe you missed something? Not insulting you just showing you what helped me avoid deficiencies.