Bodyweight or gym training?

[Superfluo]

Hi!

I've been sedentary for almost two years due to covid, pandemic, university and so on. About year ago I started having health problems, like fatigue and other symptoms. I tried to optimize my diet and I started supplementing, hoping that would solve the problems. It did not, although it helped. I also found that my health problems also came from sleeping poorly. So, knowing that working out makes you sleep better because it tires you, some months ago I started exercising again. 

I experienced some problems with that, I posted them here if you're interested in helping me:

I talked with a personal trainer who suggested to increase carbs intake and start exercising with a light bodyweight training to increase muscle mass and metabolism., then after some time to add a bit of cardio. I started doing some light bodyweight training, but I've found that it did not help very much, and that when I'm in the middle of the bodyweight workout I'm already tired. It's not like I cannot physically do it, rather I feel like my whole body numbing a bit down, like wanting to sleep.

I try to exercise three times per week, and this is my bodyweight workout:

10 push-ups
‌20 triceps dips
‌7 diamond push-ups
10 cobra push-ups
‌20 abs
‌10 "superman raise" (dorsal+leg raise)
‌5 pull ups
‌5 dips 
‌5 pull ups
‌5 dips 

I've recently talked with a friend who suggested me to start hitting the gym.

So what I'd like to ask is: what should I do? Improve the quality of my bodyweight training or going to the gym? What are the fundamental differences between bodyweight training and the gym regarding the impact on the muscles? Should I add some weights to my bodyweight training? Should I add some isometric exercises like the plank? Should I do the bodyweight workout every day? Where can I find excellent bodyweight trainings, courses and explanations?

Thank you!

Edited July 19, 2022 by Superfluo

[Max_V]

Honestly, what matters most is what you enjoy, because that is what will make you stick to it in the end. 

If you do continue with the calisthenics, I recommend you add a bit more pulling. You gotta try to create a 50/50 balance between pushing and pulling, that will make sure each muscle is in a position to perform their function optimally. Have exercises for vertical pushing and pulling and horizontal pushing and pulling. Adding a row, with gymnastics rings or a bar for example would be a good idea. I myself prefer cables to do rows with. 

Also, I see no legs . 

[Jannes]

 

Quote

Have exercises for vertical pushing and pulling and horizontal pushing and pulling. Adding a row, with gymnastics rings or a bar for example would be a good idea. I myself prefer cables to do rows with. 

Also, I see no legs . 

Yes ??
 

you could probably do a trial training at a few gyms in your area and then see how you like it. Would be a waste of money if you don’t like it. 

Push ups and pull up variations are great but I prefer the gym for a boarder range of leg exercises and the ability to isolate certain muscles without much effort (side delts, arms, ..).

But honestly if you are just starting it doesn’t need to be perfect because it’s already a big improvement compared to doing nothing. 
The renaissanceperiodization YouTube Channel is number one on fitness imo but is doesn’t cover calisthenics a lot unfortunately. 
The yt Channel called calisthenics movement is pretty good. Maybe look up a beginner Programm from there. 

[Michael569]

Great tips by @Max_V above already. Indeed, more pulling exercises will lead to more hypertrophy than focusing on pushup variations only. In fact, I'd say pull exercises (in calisthenics) have a higher impact on strength than push exercises, especially pull-ups.  Gymnastic rings, he suggested, are a beast! They are hard but they make you exponentially stronger once you start using them. 

But where muscularity is a goal, you would definitely benefit from some weight training. While callisthenics is great for core and functional strength, it is not as effective at "making you bigger" if that's the main goal. 

But it seems like your main concern is energy rather than training which may come down to multiple factors: 

From my experience in the clinic, fatigue usually comes down to a few things: 

• insufficient protein intake
• insufficient carbohydrate intake (or eating too many high GL carbs) 
• sleep deprivation 
• stimulant overuse 
• iron deficiency 
• general unhappiness with life (lack of purpose etc) - this can make a person physically weaker compared to someone with a strong sense of vision
• if none of that - it is more physiological and needs further investigation (e.g. thyroid, CFS etc) 

[Jannes]

26 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

But where muscularity is a goal, you would definitely benefit from some weight training. While callisthenics is great for core and functional strength, it is not as effective at "making you bigger" if that's the main goal. 

Agree with everything except that. Calisthenics can definetly make you bigger upper body wise. I mean you can train most of the upper body muscles in the hypertrophic range. Maybe something like the neck or side delts are a bit hard to hit though but most muscles can be trained well with only calisthenics.  

[Michael569]

@Jannes I agree to an extent. For a beginner or a mediocre practitioner, callisthenics will accelerate muscle growth but once you become too strong that the curve of effect starts bending unless you can load plates on a belt to increase your weight, you won't get the same effects anymore because now doing 20 pullups in one row is not longer a challenge and you can easily do 40 dips in one turn, it's like working with light weights, it's no longer the same. At least this is the effect I've noticed on myself after having practised it for about 14 months now. I went from 8 cap pullups to 21 and the effects is no longer the same to achieve a same type of pump I'd get from 8 before, but I still enjoy it very much. I think callisthenics is one of the most natural and healthy ways to train for health, longevity and strong core but it has its limits for hypertrophy where that is desired. 

It's all about the individual goals, of course. If you want a Chris Bumstead type of physique, weights need to be included. 

[Ampresus]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

If you want a Chris Bumstead type of physique, weights need to be included. 

Just coming in to state that cbum is juiced up. You won’t get his type of physique without going on various steroid cycles. Other than that I agree with your post. 

[Jannes]

@Michael569 I trained for 7 years now and can only do 6 pull ups. I do them very strict though and I have long noodle arms but still ? Genetics I guess. So the possibility that these movements become to easy at one point didnt accure to me. 
If your setup is a bit more then just the minimalistic stuff you will never be to strong for it though. Just think of Ring flies or archer pull ups/ single arm pull ups..

[Michael569]

@Jannes You know what, I actually trained since I was 15 and until my 30s I could not do more than 6-7. And then I stopped going to the gym completely and just started doing callisthenics because I have an awesome playground next to where I live and my strength on pullups went up exponentially. I've heard other people report that with pullups you gotta do them like 3 times a week because compared to things like bench-press it is hard to go heavy since the most limiting factor is grip strength rather than back strength. 

@Ampresus yeah that's a fair point  

Anyways, soz  @Superfluo, we've derailed the topic. Back to you -> 

 

[Superfluo]

15 hours ago, Max_V said:

Adding a row, with gymnastics rings or a bar for example would be a good idea.

I have rings attached to the parallel bars but they're hanged low because I wanted to do some special exercises.

15 hours ago, Max_V said:

Also, I see no legs .

Forgot to add I also do 10 squats.

 

13 hours ago, Jannes said:

you could probably do a trial training at a few gyms in your area and then see how you like it.

Yes I'm planning to do this. Years ago, before all of this, I also hit the gym for some time and I really liked it, but now I'm questioning if the gym is healthier than calisthenics regarding ligaments, tendons, elasticity, and flow of movements, and what should I do about it.

 

12 hours ago, Michael569 said:

But where muscularity is a goal, you would definitely benefit from some weight training. While callisthenics is great for core and functional strength, it is not as effective at "making you bigger" if that's the main goal. 

That's the main issue. My goal is to get bigger, but I don't know if the quantity of muscles I need to get to my goal size will be provided by calisthenics or I have to go to the gym. And since I want to speed up my metabolism and tire myself to sleep better, I need some intense training, but not so intense that I slack off and feel it's not right. There's a balance I'm aiming at, and the question is: is calisthenics the right type of workout to achieve that sweetspot? Or should I go to the gym so that I get some muscles as a baseline, and then I do some calisthenics with those muscles? Can calisthenics bring me to that baseline better (faster, easier, healthier) than the gym?

 

12 hours ago, Michael569 said:

• insufficient protein intake
• insufficient carbohydrate intake (or eating too many high GL carbs) 
• sleep deprivation 
• stimulant overuse 
• iron deficiency 
• general unhappiness with life (lack of purpose etc) - this can make a person physically weaker compared to someone with a strong sense of vision
• if none of that - it is more physiological and needs further investigation (e.g. thyroid, CFS etc) 

I eat about 200g of legumes every day, don't use stimulants, my iron is okay, I'm driven (although I'm stressed due to dysfunctional relationships), my thyroid is fine. My blood tests are fine. I sleep poorly though, yes. Don't really know why. I think due to tense muscles during the night. Other than that, I created a list of possible physical and mental causes which I'm tackling althoug slowly due to fatigue.

 

11 hours ago, Jannes said:

Agree with everything except that. Calisthenics can definetly make you bigger upper body wise. I mean you can train most of the upper body muscles in the hypertrophic range. Maybe something like the neck or side delts are a bit hard to hit though but most muscles can be trained well with only calisthenics.  

Good, thanks.

[Jannes]

14 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

Forgot to add I also do 10 squats.

I do like 40 just to get my blood flowing. You have to challenge the muscle. Some sort of single leg squat is good. You don’t have to be able to do a pistol squats there a variations that are a lot easier. But there are also hamstrings, glutes, calves ?

14 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

Yes I'm planning to do this. Years ago, before all of this, I also hit the gym for some time and I really liked it, but now I'm questioning if the gym is healthier than calisthenics regarding ligaments, tendons, elasticity, and flow of movements, and what should I do about it.

I don’t know what is healthier but if you don’t overtrain and do good technique both will be beneficial to your health in this regard because it strengthens these things. 

14 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

That's the main issue. My goal is to get bigger, but I don't know if the quantity of muscles I need to get to my goal size will be provided by calisthenics or I have to go to the gym. And since I want to speed up my metabolism and tire myself to sleep better, I need some intense training, but not so intense that I slack off and feel it's not right. There's a balance I'm aiming at, and the question is: is calisthenics the right type of workout to achieve that sweetspot? Or should I go to the gym so that I get some muscles as a baseline, and then I do some calisthenics with those muscles? Can calisthenics bring me to that baseline better (faster, easier, healthier) than the gym?

When I do some really heavy lifts like squats or deadlifts I sometimes can’t sleep well because my central nervous system took a big hit. That won’t happen in calisthenics as easily which is a plus for sleep. 

14 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

 

I eat about 200g of legumes every day, don't use stimulants, my iron is okay, I'm driven (although I'm stressed due to dysfunctional relationships), my thyroid is fine. My blood tests are fine. I sleep poorly though, yes. Don't really know why. I think due to tense muscles during the night. Other than that, I created a list of possible physical and mental causes which I'm tackling althoug slowly due to fatigue.
 

Are you vegan? If the 200g of legumes are pretty much your only source of protein that’s not ideal. You have to mix it with grains to get the full protein. Optimal protein intake for muscle building is 1g/pound bodyweight and for vegans 1.25-1.5/pound of bodyweight which sucks ass I know. You can also build muscle with less but it’s not ideal. 

14 minutes ago, Superfluo said:

Good, thanks.

No problem.

[Michael569]

19 hours ago, Superfluo said:

here's a balance I'm aiming at, and the question is: is calisthenics the right type of workout to achieve that sweetspot? Or should I go to the gym so that I get some muscles as a baseline, and then I do some calisthenics with those muscles? Can calisthenics bring me to that baseline better (faster, easier, healthier) than the gym?

It is a personal preference and maybe you need to try different types of exercise patterns to find what you enjoy the most. I've gone through periods of heavy bodybuilding in my teens and early 20s then got introduce to kickboxing and muay thai and stuck with that till mid 20s when we moved to Spain and later to Greece during which time I started to do more HIIT and Crossfit, later on went back to kickboxing in late 20s and now since the panemic been sticking to 100% body weight, callisthenics, rope work and some cycling/jogging and lots of hiking especially since we moved away from London towards Welsh coast. 

What I'm trying to say is is, your journey will be evolving. So be open to whatever and get the most of the thing you do. Remember, with physical activity, the ultimate goal should be your long-term health quality rather than gains. Do one thing for a year, see how your body responds, see how you like it and what you dislike about it and then adjust. You don't need to have all the answers straight away, open yourself to the period of not knowing and dance with that feeling of "I don't know what to do". Embrace it, you'll find the answers eventually. 

19 hours ago, Superfluo said:

I eat about 200g of legumes

 

On the dietary side, as @Jannes said 200g may seem like a lot but on its own even if those 200 grams is a dry weight, it is not enough. As a vegetarian, you need to include much more tofu, wholegrain sources, lentils etc. Tempeh is excellent source of protein as well. Get yourself a pressure cooker and start eating from deep plates with tablespoons  I know it sounds barbaric but it is the easiest way to meet your caloric goals by eating plant-based mostly. Forks over knives like that documentary says. 

 

[Superfluo]

@Jannes @Michael569

Thank you both, really appreciate the feedback.

And I'm not vegan nor vegetarian. I eat meat along that quantity of legumes.

[BipolarGrowth]

Gym wins hands down. People who have amazing physiques doing calisthenics only are an exception not the rule. There’s a reason why pro bodybuilders use weights far more than body weight exercises. It’s simply a more effective way to build muscle. One of the most important things for building muscle is training close to or at muscular failure on a consistent basis. It is not as practical to follow common sense progressive overload (lifting more weight or doing more reps than the previous workout in a nutshell) protocols doing only body weight exercises, especially long term. At the beginning, it’s probably fine, but you will get to a point where your muscles are too strong to be sufficiently taxed by doing body weight exercises unless you are doing tons of reps which is tedious and takes more time than necessary.

[Jannes]

2 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Gym wins hands down. People who have amazing physiques doing calisthenics only are an exception not the rule. There’s a reason why pro bodybuilders use weights far more than body weight exercises. It’s simply a more effective way to build muscle. One of the most important things for building muscle is training close to or at muscular failure on a consistent basis. It is not as practical to follow common sense progressive overload (lifting more weight or doing more reps than the previous workout in a nutshell) protocols doing only body weight exercises, especially long term. At the beginning, it’s probably fine, but you will get to a point where your muscles are too strong to be sufficiently taxed by doing body weight exercises unless you are doing tons of reps which is tedious and takes more time than necessary.

I kinda disagree. Gym people often don’t choose bodyweight exercises but that doesn’t mean they couldn’t make similar gains with it. I think it’s more of a convenience and preference thing. There are incredible difficult bodyweight exercises where you can’t do a lot of reps. Ring flies or archer pull ups for example. You can’t tell me that a chest workout consisting of ring flies, chest dips and (elevated) push ups is less stimulating then a workout with dumbbells and machines. You cant increase weight directly unless you buy a belt or smth like that but you can increase the volume by making more sets, more reps (giant sets), (increase the difficulty of the exercise) and stuff like that. 
For legs the gym is probably better. But still when somebody can do many pistol squats his barbell squat will probably be advanced. 

[BipolarGrowth]

@Jannes there’s definitely a lot that can be done with body weight exercises. Some people have amazing physiques just doing calisthenics. If you can make the same gains or better with more convenience, why not though? I’m a big fan of body weight exercises, but I prefer to add weight to them if possible with a belt like you mentioned and have seen better results that way. 

[Danioover9000]

@Superfluo I generally agree with the following posts, they have good advice.

On 7/19/2022 at 10:12 AM, Michael569 said:

Great tips by @Max_V above already. Indeed, more pulling exercises will lead to more hypertrophy than focusing on pushup variations only. In fact, I'd say pull exercises (in calisthenics) have a higher impact on strength than push exercises, especially pull-ups.  Gymnastic rings, he suggested, are a beast! They are hard but they make you exponentially stronger once you start using them. 

But where muscularity is a goal, you would definitely benefit from some weight training. While callisthenics is great for core and functional strength, it is not as effective at "making you bigger" if that's the main goal. 

But it seems like your main concern is energy rather than training which may come down to multiple factors: 

From my experience in the clinic, fatigue usually comes down to a few things: 

• insufficient protein intake
• insufficient carbohydrate intake (or eating too many high GL carbs) 
• sleep deprivation 
• stimulant overuse 
• iron deficiency 
• general unhappiness with life (lack of purpose etc) - this can make a person physically weaker compared to someone with a strong sense of vision
• if none of that - it is more physiological and needs further investigation (e.g. thyroid, CFS etc) 

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:50 AM, Max_V said:

Honestly, what matters most is what you enjoy, because that is what will make you stick to it in the end. 

If you do continue with the calisthenics, I recommend you add a bit more pulling. You gotta try to create a 50/50 balance between pushing and pulling, that will make sure each muscle is in a position to perform their function optimally. Have exercises for vertical pushing and pulling and horizontal pushing and pulling. Adding a row, with gymnastics rings or a bar for example would be a good idea. I myself prefer cables to do rows with. 

Also, I see no legs . 

 

   For me though, I hate DOMS (damage onset muscle soreness), and generally any program that has 3x days per week and above, and high volume(number of sets and number of reps) are more detrimental to other parts of my life. I actually find that 3x, and sometimes 2x or 1x per week, with low volume and higher intensity, is enough stimulation for me, as I'm not aiming for body building physic, bulking muscles, or even strongmen physic. My aim is slightly leaner body, with explosive speed and power, so it's mostly isometrics for different muscle groups and walking for me. I relatively maintain my body weight while getting stronger and faster. And a bit of martial arts training as well, and that's about it. 

[Carl-Richard]

 

 

[Michael569]

@Carl-Richard since we are back at this, let's throw in one more  12:00 - 12:45 

 

[Carl-Richard]

@Michael569 ???