About the Quran

[Vibroverse]

Why are there verses like "cut the thief's hand" or "2 women=1 man" etc in the Quran? Can God say things like that or are those verses not coming directly from God or is it about the historical and cultural nature of it or am I creating Mohammad and the entire Quran and its history etc in the now, wtf is that? ?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Vibroverse

[Breakingthewall]

we are supposed to see the underlying truth in all religions.

what about thor and odin and that of dying with the sword in the hand? and zeus and his gang? or better, a mountain of corpses with their hearts ripped out as a tribute to the sun god? 

[_Archangel_]

11 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

is it about the historical and cultural nature

@Vibroverse true

 

11 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

r am I creating Mohammad and the entire Quran and its history etc in the now

true aswell

--------

In general, don't take any religous scripture too literally, as it usually is stuffed with cultural bullshit of the time.
You can certenly find encoded mysticism in the quran, but is often covered in allegories etc., and certanly not the main purpose of the book.

If you want to spiritual interpretation of Islam, research Sufism.

[Someone here]

 

The Quran is just a book, written by people, no more, no less. Like every other book it contains some wisdom .but no wisdom or messages from a divine being (you can insert the word god here if you wish). It's importance or otherwise is only that which people choose to bestow.

People easily indoctrinate themselves, while many also brainwash their children into their chosen belief patterns. People's gullibility is the issue, the Quran (and every other religious book) simply takes advantage of that fact.

[Leo Gura]

That's like someone 2000 years from now watching one of my videos and saying, "Why does Leo call Trump an idiot?" Can God say things like that?

[Vibroverse]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's like someone 2000 years from now watching one of my videos and saying, "Why does Leo call Trump an idiot?" Can God say things like that?

"Beat the ones who get involved in sexual relationships outside of marriage". Yeah, I agree with you, Leo, but the thing is there still are many people who believe that these are the words of God and these things need to keep being implemented. They believe that the words of God are eternal, so the Sharia is eternal, they have no mental capacity of thinking about the historical etc nature of those verses. 

Maybe you are right when you say it is no different really than you saying Trump is an idiot, maybe it is kinda like the evolution of the understanding of love and justice and goodness, and the meaning of them, etc. Maybe you are, in a sense, Mohammad filtered through the modern culture, and Mohammad was, in a sense, the version of you in that cultural era. 

[Someone here]

@Vibroverse

He used to meditate in his cave before being a prophet, he was enlighten human, who chose to be away from people some time and went to find a reason for his life by being alone on a cave.

Meditate and Think .that was his choice .

He was realized and then went mad. After he went mad he wrote most of the Koran including where it says: Kill those who are non believing and take their wives.

Very sad.

[Vibroverse]

6 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Vibroverse

He used to meditate in his cave before being a prophet, he was enlighten human, who chose to be away from people some time and went to find a reason for his life by being alone on a cave.

Meditate and Think .that was his choice .

He was realized and then went mad. After he went mad he wrote most of the Koran including where it says: Kill those who are non believing and take their wives.

Very sad.

I think it may not be as simple as that, because those verses came in the times of war, so maybe he was not talking about killing them for they are nonbelievers, but killing them because they were in a war. And taking their wives and making them slaves etc, well yeah, yeah, from our modern perspective it sounds just barbaric, yeah, but maybe we need to learn about reading it through a critical historic approach, and try to criticize those people in their own contexts. 

I mean, yeah, there are many verses that look clearly barbaric to me as well, and as I asked, I say, "how can an enlightened being say such things", but then, I try to think of it like Leo did. Trying to think of it in a cultural context, because even if he really was channeling God, he was channeling God through his own filters and his own cultural context. 

Maybe he also went mad, in a sense, but, like, wasn't he a part of that culture, did he really have any other chance but being himself, if he was, by definition, the idea of being him himself? He might have his own beliefs and cultural indoctrinations etc, maybe, like all of us do, even though we are not aware that we do, for we are the idea of being us, if you know what I mean. 

[Breakingthewall]

22 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@Vibroverse

He used to meditate in his cave before being a prophet, he was enlighten human, who chose to be away from people some time and went to find a reason for his life by being alone on a cave.

Meditate and Think .that was his choice .

He was realized and then went mad. After he went mad he wrote most of the Koran including where it says: Kill those who are non believing and take their wives.

Very sad.

I think that he was a rich merchant who led caravans, he saw that in the West there was a religion that united the population and made them strong, and he thought....what if I make another one, but instead of putting that Jesus Christ, that the prophet be me? round business! and dedicated himself to conquering by arms all the tribes of the place, to have 8 wives and to be a king. Smart guy

[Someone here]

21 minutes ago, Vibroverse said:

I think it may not be as simple as that, because those verses came in the times of war, so maybe he was not talking about killing them for they are nonbelievers, but killing them because they were in a war. And taking their wives and making them slaves etc, well yeah, yeah, from our modern perspective it sounds just barbaric, yeah, but maybe we need to learn about reading it through a critical historic approach, and try to criticize those people in their own contexts. 

I mean, yeah, there are many verses that look clearly barbaric to me as well, and as I asked, I say, "how can an enlightened being say such things", but then, I try to think of it like Leo did. Trying to think of it in a cultural context, because even if he really was channeling God, he was channeling God through his own filters and his own cultural context. 

Maybe he also went mad, in a sense, but, like, wasn't he a part of that culture, did he really have any other chance but being himself, if he was, by definition, the idea of being him himself? He might have his own beliefs and cultural indoctrinations etc, maybe, like all of us do, even though we are not aware that we do, for we are the idea of being us, if you know what I mean. 

 

9 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I think that he was a rich merchant who led caravans, he saw that in the West there was a religion that united the population and made them strong, and he thought....what if I make another one, but instead of putting that Jesus Christ, that the prophet be me? round business! and dedicated himself to conquering by arms all the tribes of the place, to have 8 wives and to be a king. Smart guy

An enlightened person speaks as per his own realization of Truth. Mohammed did not speak as per his own realization of Truth. Allah did not speak to him directly. He spoke what was he was told to him by an angel of Allah in a dream state and he took it as the word of Allah and preached it. Even followers of Islam say that he was an ignorant, illiterate person. An enlightened person realizes Truth by himself and then speaks about it like Buddha. So, Mohammed was not an enlightened person. As Mohammed is the last prophet, no one can even recieve the message of God after him. In fact, there is no concept of enlightenment or liberation in Islam. Islam is limited to belief which turns into blind belief. As per Islam, at best, you can go to heaven which is a place of great physical pleasure but you cannot be liberated. Concept of exclusive enjoyment is wrong because enjoyment exists only with respect to pain. You cannot go beyond enjoyment and suffering as per Islam. You cannot attain liberation in this life as per Islam. Heaven, hell, Allah are mere matters of belief. You cannot arrive at Truth by yourself by applying your own intellect and other God given faculties. You can not question the words of God as told by Mohammed but accept them blindly.

So I suggest that you drop this whole inquiry..forget about Mohammed and the quran ..and seek direct experience of Allah. 

[Vibroverse]

16 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 

An enlightened person speaks as per his own realization of Truth. Mohammed did not speak as per his own realization of Truth. Allah did not speak to him directly. He spoke what was he was told to him by an angel of Allah in a dream state and he took it as the word of Allah and preached it. Even followers of Islam say that he was an ignorant, illiterate person. An enlightened person realizes Truth by himself and then speaks about it like Buddha. So, Mohammed was not an enlightened person. As Mohammed is the last prophet, no one can even recieve the message of God after him. In fact, there is no concept of enlightenment or liberation in Islam. Islam is limited to belief which turns into blind belief. As per Islam, at best, you can go to heaven which is a place of great physical pleasure but you cannot be liberated. Concept of exclusive enjoyment is wrong because enjoyment exists only with respect to pain. You cannot go beyond enjoyment and suffering as per Islam. You cannot attain liberation in this life as per Islam. Heaven, hell, Allah are mere matters of belief. You cannot arrive at Truth by yourself by applying your own intellect and other God given faculties. You can not question the words of God as told by Mohammed but accept them blindly.

So I suggest that you drop this whole inquiry..forget about Mohammed and the quran ..and seek direct experience of Allah. 

Well, I agree with you about some of your points, and yes, one must find God himself. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

You cannot go beyond enjoyment and suffering as per Islam. You cannot attain liberation in this life as per Islam

they don't even know what those concepts are. in paradise you fuck with models, in hell they pour molten lead down your throat. do not ask them for more complex ideas. then there is the most paradoxical: the sufis like ibn arabi, who are true enlightened mystics. would they really accept muhammad? reading to them seems that they do not want to contradict the koran because it is what they have to do in their society, but their message is completely different

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

but the thing is there still are many people who believe that these are the words of God

Well, most people are morons.

If you realize that, you'll have solved at least half the puzzle of life

[Someone here]

13 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

they don't even know what those concepts are. in paradise you fuck with models, in hell they pour molten lead down your throat.

? its even worse. God knows beforehand who will go where and makes us that way anyway. It’s not even our choice. He just decides we go to hell before we even exist and that’s it .

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 then there is the most paradoxical: the sufis like ibn arabi, who are true enlightened mystics. would they really accept muhammad? reading to them seems that they do not want to contradict the koran because it is what they have to do in their society, but their message is completely different

Yeah most sufis are concerned atheists by mainstream Islam. Because they teach pantheism. Whereas mainstream Islam teaches that God is separated from you .

[Girzo]

3 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

the thing is there still are many people who believe that these are the words of God

It's not necessary to believe personally these are the words of God, it's enough to believe that others in your group believe they are God's words. I think this is the position most believers find themselves in, they believe that others truly believe these things and the group who actually believes it all is a very small minority.

[Vibroverse]

1 minute ago, Girzo said:

It's not necessary to believe personally these are the words of God, it's enough to believe that others in your group believe they are God's words. I think this is the position most believers find themselves in, they believe that others truly believe these things and the group who actually believes it all is a very small minority.

Well, this might a very accurate analysis. Maybe almost noone really accepts any of that, or a really small minority, but everyone believes the others believe, so they try to fit into a society that does not actually exist, but being created with that misunderstanding. 

[Vibroverse]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, most people are morons.

If you realize that, you'll have solved at least half the puzzle of life

You may be right, mhm. Morons being morons in many different ways, and that's one of those ways ?

[SamC]

On 2022-07-17 at 0:24 AM, Vibroverse said:

Why are there verses like "cut the thief's hand" or "2 women=1 man" etc in the Quran? Can God say things like that or are those verses not coming directly from God or is it about the historical and cultural nature of it or am I creating Mohammad and the entire Quran and its history etc in the now, wtf is that? ?

2 woman = 1 man = what happens when there is so much love ( feminity) that something else creates from itself ( masculinity)

Masculinity is femininity on steriods. I mean think about it, there can only be one thing. Or can it