Manchin and the right-wing destroyed all of Democrat's climate agenda!???

[Hardkill]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your thinking on how progress happens is too black and white and simplistic. That's why you're getting hung up on this stuff.

Progress isn't some battle you win or lose once. It's a neverending evolutionary process that started billions of years ago and will continue for billions more. See yourself as just in the middle of that and be at peace.

I understanding what you're saying with regard to progress in the grand scheme of things, but what for example has Bernie Sanders been accomplished materially for the country ever in his entire life as a progressive? Yes, he has successfully "shifted the arena" of debate and discussion more towards crucial issues that were previously unthinkable several years ago. Yes, he has inspired even more popular left-leaning movements to fight for more progressive policies. Yes, he was able to convince Biden to be much more supportive of more liberal leaning positions.

But what good did anything of that do when all of the Republicans, Manchin, Sinema, and all of the other right wing democrats in Congress altogether stopped practically all of the things that progressives demanded to get passed in Congress? Progressives are now not even going to get even ONE of things they asked for.

You said before that when Republicans and right-wing democrat block any good liberal/progressives policies that makes them look bad. Yet in actuality, Biden and Democrats are the ones who are looking embarrassing because of their failures to get much done through Congress, let alone get any of those good polices passed. There has even talks amongst a number democratic pundits who think that the people working in the Biden Administration, including White House chief of staff, Ron Klain, who made the mistake of letting the progressives influenced them. That's one reason why the electorate as a whole is swinging back towards the Republicans.

So, what has been the use of the progressives?

Edited July 18, 2022 by Hardkill

[Emrie]

On 16/07/2022 at 8:38 AM, Leo Gura said:

Climate change will not be prevented, it will have to be fixed in the future with new techology.

What do you mean by "not be prevented". Do you mean we'll get 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 degrees warming? Do you mean that we're just going to keep emitting GHGs even well into the second half of the 21st century?

And what technology are you thinking here? Geoengineering? Or finding new ways to grow food in less ideal conditions? Even extending that, finding ways to have human beings living in a harsher climate?

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Hardkill said:

But what good did anything of that do when all of the Republicans, Manchin, Sinema, and all of the other right wing democrats in Congress altogether stopped practically all of the things that progressives demanded to get passed in Congress? Progressives are now not even going to get even ONE of things they asked for.

That's untrue.

Lots of good stuff has been done under Biden. You're not looking at the technicals of what was actually done, you're just following the pop-culture news. And you also have to compare it to the alternative, which is someone like Trump or Desantis in power. Relative to that, Biden is a saint.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Emrie said:

What do you mean by "not be prevented". Do you mean we'll get 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4 degrees warming? Do you mean that we're just going to keep emitting GHGs even well into the second half of the 21st century?

I have no idea how many degrees it will increase, but yeah, something like 2.5 seems likely.

Quote

And what technology are you thinking here? Geoengineering? Or finding new ways to grow food in less ideal conditions? Even extending that, finding ways to have human beings living in a harsher climate?

CO2 capture and ultimately humans will have to invent tech to regulate the climate by controlling how much sunlight reaches the Earth. You can't really predict which tech will be discovered in 100 years. But you can expect some powerful tech.

[Hardkill]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's untrue.

Lots of good stuff has been done under Biden. You're not looking at the technicals of what was actually done, you're just following the pop-culture news. And you also have to compare it to the alternative, which is someone like Trump or Desantis in power. Relative to that, Biden is a saint.

No look, I am not saying that Biden himself hasn't done any good. I think he has done a good job overall as President. He's undoubtedly an order of magnitude better as president than Trump was all around. DeSantis or any other Repubs like him becoming the next president would of course be much worse in every way possible than Biden leading our country.

Btw, I do think that while he may not be a natural political genius like Bill and Hillary Clinton or Obama were, I actually think that in some respects, Biden is wiser than Obama and the Clintons were.

In any case, I wasn't asking about Biden or trying to trash him. What I am trying asking is what have AOC, Jayapal, Sanders, Warren, and all of the other progressives out there actually accomplished ever since Biden took office? What has the been the point of having any of them in Congress when none of them had ANY leverage over the right-wing democrats? Wouldn't Biden, Harris, Pelosi, and Schumer have achieved the about the same results they've already gotten if all of the Democrats in the House of Representatives were regular centrist Dems and if Bernie and Warren were also regular centrist dems in the Senate?

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

In any case, I wasn't asking about Biden or trying to trash him. What I am trying asking is what have AOC, Jayapal, Sanders, Warren, and all of the other progressives out there actually accomplished ever since Biden took office? What has the been the point of having any of them in Congress when none of them had ANY leverage over the right-wing democrats?

No one Senator or Congressperson has much power individually.

Their effect is mostly to shift the Overton window leftward. In this they do a good job.

Why are you expecting miracles from lone congresspeople? If you want serious progressive reforms then we'd have to elect 100 of them. Whining that they are doing nothing just undercuts the few of them there are.

People expect silly things from politicians and then end up disappointing themselves. That's just not how government works.

[Hardkill]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No one Senator or Congressperson has much power individually.

Generally yes. However, because we have a 50-50 senate and a 3 seat majority in the House, king Manchin, queen Sinema, and the right-wing democrats of the House of the Representatives actually hold the most amount of power in Congress. The progressives in Congress tried standing up to them, which they were able to twice in a row, but in the end they lost to the right-wing Democrats.

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Their effect is mostly to shift the Overton window leftward. In this they do a good job.

Okay, that is true. Though, if they push Democratic Party too far to the left then couldn't that make a lot more Democrats unelectable?

 

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Why are you expecting miracles from lone congresspeople? If you want serious progressive reforms then we'd have to elect 100 of them. Whining that they are doing nothing just undercuts the few of them there are.

People expect silly things from politicians and then end up disappointing themselves. That's just not how government works.

Well, we were so close to getting all of those much needed and popular provisions from BBB......but sadly it wasn't close enough.

You're right, we need to figure out some way to elect way more progressives or left-wing Dems in Congress.

[BlueOak]

One thing I brought up in another topic elsewhere was, that no other template exists for how countries that do industralize, or go through rapid economic growth, can do that without following the same path we did. Which means buying fossil fuels and burning them. 

I've never even seen this point discussed in any debate, and to me it seems paramount as it's trying to tackle a future problem before it happens, which has to be easier than shifting the status quo once its established.

Edited July 21, 2022 by BlueOak

[Hardkill]

Actually guys, I made a mistake....

Democrats were able to pass a bill with climate provisions and more after all!

[vindicated erudite]

On 19/07/2022 at 3:51 AM, Leo Gura said:

I have no idea how many degrees it will increase, but yeah, something like 2.5 seems likely.

CO2 capture and ultimately humans will have to invent tech to regulate the climate by controlling how much sunlight reaches the Earth. You can't really predict which tech will be discovered in 100 years. But you can expect some powerful tech.

I don't think that global warming is as doomer pilled as people make it out to be however it is a problem.

All we need to do in order to prevent a catastrophic climate change scenario is to limit our dependence on fossil fuels by implementing greener and more efficient energy alternatives in order to slow down global warming until we can roll out a complete alternative to fossil fuels such as nuclear fusion or fission. 

Also I do not believe that we need some type of matrix style sunlight blocking technology in order to capture CO2. Glacial rivers seem to absorb CO2 pretty well (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/25/scientists-glacial-rivers-absorb-carbon-faster-rainforests ) maybe by combing this knowledge with some kind of adapted ice stupa technology like this:

  we could capture CO2 rather easily, but that's just some bro science theory I made up whilst smoking a joint.