Higher LOC person = higher value person?

[StarStruck]

But does this also mean one can feel better than an other because of higher level of consciousness(LOC)?

When I see people who have bad eating habits, very unhealthy persons physically and metaphysically, I do feel compassion and I don't judge them because I understand them. But does open the door to the question, why would I sacrifice myself for them? They won't understand it anyway.

For example Leo said in his latest video that he wouldn't be friends with traumatic people because he values his time. On the one hand spiritual people say all is one and on the other hand we should also be smart about it I think. I'm confused about this topic though.

[Brittany]

"Value" and "Worth" doesn't exist. They are illusions of the mind. 

Hierarchy of worth and value creates seperation and distortion.

Levels of Consciousness like the LOC system and Spiral Dynamics are also an illusion. But people use them as a tools in the world of duality to make sense of what is happening. But even these tools are illusions and not ultimately true.

[Leo Gura]

LOC is a silly and dangerous idea.

[RMQualtrough]

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by RMQualtrough

[Tyler Robinson]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

LOC is a silly and dangerous idea.

Why do you say that? 

 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Why do you say that?

1) Consciousness is far too multi-dimensional to map with a linear set of numbers.

2) Guessing the LOC of others is prone to a lot of projection and error.

Consciousness cannot be reduced down to a number.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura You talk a lot about states of consciousness. Do you think there is also a problematic element to this view (same as above, you cannot quantify it because the "state" is all there is and cannot be compared to anything outside of it)?

I don't quantify states of consciousness though. Although there are higher and lower ones.

It is simply the case that states of consciousness are all there is to reality. You're always in some state and your state dictates absolutely everything about you and your life.

States of consciousness is not a linear nor quantitative notion.

[AuroraDream]

You're level of consciousness doesn't matter.... ignorant fools...  

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Judy2 said:

In your model, is the "state" the seer, or the seen? It's consciousness, right?

But then the only way you could tell that your state changed is if something in your experience (the content) changed as well. Like sensory impressions getting sharper or having different sensations in your body.

If the "state" was really referring to consciousness (aka formlessness) alone, then how could it notably change in its "density"?  All you'd ever see of that are the symptoms (on the level of form/content).

I have taken psychedelics and experienced intense changes in my "state", but wouldn't go as far as to say that this was some absolute parameter, given that the changes likely happened on the level of form. You said that yourself in one of your videos on how psychedelics work. That they change your experience and show how twisted it can get, but the realisation that can come from that is beyond the form and related to the "formlessness"underneath.

I'm genuinely curious though, so feel free to elaborate a bit more:)

There is no difference between seer and seen.

There is also no difference between form and formlessness.

What changes is consciousness increases. Consciousness cannot be reduced to formlessness nor a change in form, consciousness is a holistic self-grasping, self-recognition capacity. There is no substitute for it and it cannot be reduced to any set of distinctions or forms in the same way that you will never find a forest by looking for it among the trees.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, AuroraDream said:

You're level of consciousness doesn't matter.... ignorant fools...  

Pipe down, silly human.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

Sure. But for the purpose of talking about your definition of a state, i thought it was helpful to consider this.

How so?

State is all there is. There is no body to whom the state is happening, other than You/God. You/God ARE state.

Quote

Ok thanks, that does make sense.

But isn't this the point where we should also throw the idea of a state out the window?

Why?

You are always in some state and your state changes depending on the situation: asleep, exhausted, sick, drunk, horny, meditating, suffering, etc.

It's a very simple, practical, and useful idea. Don't over think it. Changing your state is the key to waking up.

[Ulax]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Consciousness is far too multi-dimensional to map with a linear set of numbers.

2) Guessing the LOC of others is prone to a lot of projection and error.

Consciousness cannot be reduced down to a number.

So, by disavowing LOC, you are saying you don't agree with the 0 - 1000 style metric?

How about if OP was talking about spiral dynamics stages re consciousness. I.e. a stage yellow person being more valuable than a stage blue person.

I personally think it sounds somewhat fascist, re answering OP's question in the affirmative.

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Ulax said:

So, by disavowing LOC, you are saying you don't agree with the 0 - 1000 style metric?

Not only do I disagree with it, I find it a joke.

Quote

How about if OP was talking about spiral dynamics stages re consciousness. I.e. a stage yellow person being more valuable than a stage blue person.

I personally think it sounds somewhat fascist, re answering OP's question in the affirmative.

A Stage Yellow person isn't more valuable than Blue, just more developed and self-aware.

Value is a very relative notion. The issue there is, what are your values?

If you value development and self-awareness, then Yellow is more valuable, according to you.

[Thought Art]

Hmm, I like the LOC idea from the books. It's a finite model, I will read a few more of Davids books and then throw it away.

It's just like an organizing scheme. Though the way he made it is iffy.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Bandman said:

Then why do you have it on your booklist?

As I have said, if I had to agree with everything in a book in order to recommend it, I would have zero books to recommend.

LOC is not the reason I recommend those books.

I expect you to be able to read books critically, with independent judgment. Just because I share some resource does not mean everything in that resource is something you should adopt without critical thinking.

I deliberately share many diverse and divergent perspectives as part of my approach to understanding reality. I've talked about this in past epistemology videos. Not all of these perspectives are going to align. There will be many contradictions. And your job is to hold all that in your mind at once without getting lost in ideology.

[Thought Art]

The LOC model is nice in that he talks about so many emotional states and how to affect your life and how you can move to higher ones. It's totally not.. like perfect but I like it.

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

State makes it sound like there are different levels that you can compare to one another. And that's generally useful (as you said, tired vs. drunk vs. sober and awake etc.), but the way you use it makes it sound very solid and absolute. As though there was some 'real' state, when actually 'state' is an idea that is part of *what is*(*indefinable*). (Or even the referent of what the concept 'state' refers to, e.g. symptoms of being tired, the way "perception"is "tainted"when one is tired, would be part of *what is*.)

There are states which are absolute and omniscient, from which all of reality is made perfectly conscious.

In these states it's like the fog of war has been removed from all of reality. So yes, others states are less than that, less truthful. In lower states you don't actually see reality clearly, not at all.

God can be in various degrees of dreaming and various degrees of wakefulness. And the wakeful degrees of consciousness are more truthful/accurate than the dreaming degrees, just like when you're drunk your perception of reality is less accurate. It's not just different. It's less truthful.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura Okay, so it's a matter of clarity, you could say.

Yes, that's a good way to put it.

Although technically it's about MORE CONSCIOUSNESS.

There is such a thing as MORE consciousness than you currently have. Way more.

Quote

And isn't spirituality about the "common element"of all these states? As far as i know, that is generally the case, but you seem to have a different approach.

You are describing classic nonduality, neo-advaita, or Buddhism, which is not God-Realization.

Spirituality is badly corrupted by people who don't know what the highest consciousness is because they've never accessed it.

The highest and purest spirituality is about becoming so conscious that you are fully conscious that your mind constructs all of reality around you and all sense of other. This is God-Realization. Once you reach God-Realization you've solved the entire riddle of existence.

The common element is that you are God dreaming up everything and everyone, including all spiritual teachings and teachers.

[Loving Radiance]

On 15.7.2022 at 5:24 PM, StarStruck said:

When I see people who have bad eating habits, very unhealthy persons physically and metaphysically, I do feel compassion and I don't judge them because I understand them. But does open the door to the question, why would I sacrifice myself for them? They won't understand it anyway.

How and why would you sacrifice yourself for them?

On 15.7.2022 at 5:24 PM, StarStruck said:

For example Leo said in his latest video that he wouldn't be friends with traumatic people because he values his time. On the one hand spiritual people say all is one and on the other hand we should also be smart about it I think. I'm confused about this topic though.

There is no contradiction in "all is one" and having boundaries about who you spend your time with.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Judy2 said:

@Leo Gura Would you say that any state is equally "God" then, with the difference that in some cases, God is more apparent to itself as God? And in other cases, it's God pretending not to be God.

Yes.

God is dreaming, then God is awake. But even when God is dreaming, it's still God. It just doesn't know itself as God because it's too busy thinking it's a human.

Dreaming is the best analogy. You already have an experience of how this works every morning you wake up.