What’s the difference between Sadhguru & Shinzen Young?

[ajai]

Things stink when they get old, I rather prefer the one without hair and new.

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Spiral Wizard said:

I definitely admire his indifference towards this fluctuation but I’ve also heard other teachers say that there is a stage of enlightenment beyond that where there is no more fluctuation, just firmly rooted in the ground of enlightenment 24/7. 

 

What do you think?

Shinzen once told a story of a Zen master who was on a Japanese talk show. The interviewer asked the roshi, what is Enlightenment? The roshi responded with something along the lines “I guess you could say enlightenment is the passing away of the distinction between enlightenment and non enlightenment.” 
 

There is a stage of enlightenment beyond the need for enlightenment to be any particular state,  because it‘s recognized that what is true, is true no matter what state, and has been true even before one began meditating.

Also don’t let Shinzen fool you, even his “normal” or “non-enlightened” states are way beyond 99.9% of the population. When a being lowers suffering to that degree and has that much clarity, even if one is not in a deep state there’s a dramatic difference. 

[Jodistrict]

Shinzen also use to teach people with conditions like AIDS, how to live with pain.  He also taught strong determination sitting, where we would sit until the pain was unbearable and there was a breakthrough from pain to only feeling sensations and movements.   Shinzen got interested in Indian Spirituality and he actually did a sun dance with a North American tribe, where you dance in the sun for several days and at the end they put two knives in your breasts and hang you from a tree.  I haven't heard any other teachers talk about pain.  Pain is the strongest signal that convinces us that the illusion of reality is true.  Have these other teachers reached the level where they can turn pain into feelings of sensations and movement, where there is no suffering ?

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Consilience]

21 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Shinzen also use to teach people with conditions like AIDS, how to live with pain.  He also taught strong determination sitting, where we would sit until the pain was unbearable and there was a breakthrough from pain to only feeling sensations and movements.   Shinzen got interested in Indian Spirituality and he actually did a sun dance with a North American tribe, where you dance in the sun for several days and at the end they put two knives in your breasts and hang you from a tree.  I haven't heard any other teachers talk about pain.  Pain is the strongest signal that convinces us that the illusion of reality is true.  Have these other teachers reached the level where they can turn pain into feelings of sensations and movement, where there is no suffering ?

 

100%.

There’s a video where he talks about a 2 month Mahasi retreat where there was a 4 hour strong determination sit everyday. Imagine 60 days, 4 hours of SDS. Unimaginable. Actually quite dangerous to the body, but still. The mind that comes out of those 2 months will be on a completely different level. 

Glorifying pain is not the objective, Buddha intentionally taught the middle way. But considering how much aversion the modern mind has towards pain, the modern mind that’s addicted to a myriad of endless pleasures, comforts, and distractions, working directly with pain is enormously powerful. No other teacher talks about how to work with pain strategically/effectively. The only other teachers I know who’s worked with pain like Shinzen are Soryu while he trained in Rinzai or Ralston through his martial study. 
 

The goal is not pain for the sake of pain, but learning the ultimately reality/nature of pain, which is done by paying attention to it, deeply, ie mindfulness.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Consilience

[Breakingthewall]

Due to this thread I have seen something of both, and in both cases it gives me a very negative feeling. not because of them as a person but because of the idea that a teacher, a school, be it Zen, Isha, or another, an organized group, intends to lead people to enlightenment. seems absolutely wrong to me. total independence is required, there is no beaten path to travel, no eleven oxen or anything. only total freshness can take you, you have to invent the path, since your path is absolutely unique. no monk becomes enlightened, no one who obeys becomes enlightened. maybe they reach the calm, but not to the full opening. that is not possible for who defines himself 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Spiral Wizard said:

In this video Shinzen mentions that his direct day to day experience ranges from a highly enlightened state to a state that someone who has never meditated is in. 

Keep in mind, this is 12 years ago. I don’t know how it’s right now but in a video from 3 years ago he basically said the same. 

I definitely admire his indifference towards this fluctuation but I’ve also heard other teachers say that there is a stage of enlightenment beyond that where there is no more fluctuation, just firmly rooted in the ground of enlightenment 24/7. 

 

What do you think?

I agree I have heard the same thing. 24/7 I wonder how their sleep is like?

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

total independence is required

This is complete hubris 

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

no monk becomes enlightened, 

This is complete bs 

 

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Consilience said:

This is complete hubris 

This is complete bs 

 

The second could be. Also it's just my opinion. but in my opinion adjusting the foot to fit the shoe is the opposite of enlightenment

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Consilience said:

Shinzen once told a story of a Zen master who was on a Japanese talk show. The interviewer asked the roshi, what is Enlightenment? The roshi responded with something along the lines “I guess you could say enlightenment is the passing away of the distinction between enlightenment and non enlightenment.” 
 

This is on the money.  The more conscious one becomes the more they see sameness not difference.  And the more they realize there is no difference between anything.   This is both good and bad.  In everyday life one needs differences for survival purposes.  So it's good in terms with aligning with one's true nature but it's bad for the ego's survival.  Thus a balance must be struck.   

[Consilience]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The second could be. Also it's just my opinion. but in my opinion adjusting the foot to fit the shoe is the opposite of enlightenment

Finding the right teacher is almost a requirement to actually make it. Find any enlightened teacher that made it all alone. It’s true only YOU can become enlightened, but the support of a teacher or community is extremely powerful, especially given most minds are utterly untrustworthy, even minds that have the drive for awakening. 

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is on the money.  The more conscious one becomes the more they see sameness not difference.  And the more they realize there is no difference between anything.   This is both good and bad.  In everyday life one needs differences for survival purposes.  So it's good in terms with aligning with one's true nature but it's bad for the ego's survival.  Thus a balance must be struck.   

Haven't seen you in a while welcome back!!!

Ahhh that wonderful word balance...how doth thou eluded those who pursue thee the most. 

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Razard86 said:

Haven't seen you in a while welcome back!!!

Ahhh that wonderful word balance...how doth thou eluded those who pursue thee the most. 

?

 

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Finding the right teacher is almost a requirement to actually make it.

For me it sounds like that you give your authority over yourself to another. there is no other. there is only you, you are the Life. it has to flow with absolute freedom. 

 

27 minutes ago, Consilience said:

especially given most minds are utterly untrustworthy

It means: i don't trust in me. So i trust in you. I'm absolutely trustworthy, since I'm the only source of trust. There can't be other. Someone could inspire you, but after that, you are alone

Edited July 16, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[ValiantSalvatore]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I agree I have heard the same thing. 24/7 I wonder how their sleep is like?

While attending micro retreats shinzen holds Q&A's after every 1h30 session in one block of meditation techniques that he teaches in his rigorous programm. He reported IIRC once that he experienced this particulary dream and I am sort of paraphrasing in technicolor and in general from being around integral folks/brain/mindfulness oriented people there is an understanding and integration of the dream state. As far as I've read theory it's for example equated to two permanent stages that precede non-duality as an ultimate stage.

• Psychic structure stage = ??,  gross body?  -> psychic state translation ( I don't understand much about this legit from reading) IIRC it's equated with early realizations reaching back to shamans. Stream entry maybe?
• Dream structure realiztion = REM sleep, dream state, subtle body (energ, prana) -> dream state translation
• Causal structure realization = deep sleep, casual body (energy, prana) -> casual state translation
• Non dual state realization = ??, non dual body(energy, prana) -> non dual state translation

So basically you can experience in a more expanded sense a dream state experience in multiple structures and states that could be even physically measured ... like the casual state and dream state which will ultimately lead to dream strucuture realization ( which I don't quiet yet understand) and they report this to some manner and degree depending on who asks. Similar to for example tibetian dream yoga which would heavily emphasise a dream structure-stage and it's state experience for translation...

I've particpated at times were kriya-yoga and karma yoga guys asked questions about awakening their experience, enlightenmen their current practice and it was a lot about energy body and shinzen basically never showed his. So I am unsure what to say about that. As he definitely hold him self a bit back as the other guys were obviously in very elated states. In terms of talking about energy, energy body distinctions are also very important as this would lead to actively translation/integration of strucute-stage X. Yet also can be a display of mania in my experience as content of the state experiences is personafied and obstruced by the ego and a sort of schizophrenia like mania can develop. I am just saying this is how kriyas tend to be or bangha experiences. 

Back to the dream state experiences in both structure-stages... there are a lot of reports and talks from IIRC Daniel Ingram, Shinzen should have something, Ken Wilber, Michael W. Taft, Andrew Holocek. Yet it's difficult to find I just remember from random audio snippets like legit sound cloud information from them talking about this as this is very fringe stuff even for them, besides Andrew Holocek as he actively is fully trained in this tradation.

For example what they report is: (Including both stages of what constitutes the concept "dream" )

• Morals swap over into dream body from gross body (normi body everyone has)
• Full controll over the dream and it's content to skill level realized
• Abillity to re-incarnate and how the process looks like (including gender)
• Superpowers like flying obviously while legit dreaming and sleeping yet full control over these powers fighting like mages ( see Daniel Ingram reports... that dude...)
• Wickas/Witches/Hexen techniques who also had practices with the subtle body
• Fights and battles with dream body obviously like not hurting physical body (nobody explicitly said this to me but okay...)
• Creation at will and choice of content
• Free will?
• Randomness inside the dream suddenly being pulled to new worlds/plains etc.
• Brain wave state correlates theta and delta or overall frequency let's say if you'd include the energy body
• Beautiful and fantastic visual phenomena 
• Awe
• Wonder
• Fun

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Due to this thread I have seen something of both, and in both cases it gives me a very negative feeling. not because of them as a person but because of the idea that a teacher, a school, be it Zen, Isha, or another, an organized group, intends to lead people to enlightenment. seems absolutely wrong to me. total independence is required, there is no beaten path to travel, no eleven oxen or anything. only total freshness can take you, you have to invent the path, since your path is absolutely unique. no monk becomes enlightened, no one who obeys becomes enlightened. maybe they reach the calm, but not to the full opening. that is not possible for who defines himself 

This is a very obvious projection every teacher both Sadghuru and Shinzen would emphazies not blindly following this is a paradox in itself as you have to do something in order to be there. Kriya-Yoga for example has a good principle and concept for this IIRC I am quoting out of a book. The principle is called guru principle there is more but this summarize it's core: "the Guru is within; and, therfore is neither man nor women". They further explain god is the only teacher in that sense yes YOU ARE ALONE. To emphasise I see it similar and they say the exact same thing, yet it's very difficult for people to realize so they project and it's a re-occuring projection pattern. In that sense god/enlightenmen is the ultimate teacher as that is what it's about. 

Obviously it's not obvious that teachers say this as some really do not IIRC they do (sadghuru and shinzen), can't recall what they ultimately said yet it fits the same frame. You are in that sense ultimately one or the primordial perfection maybe that is a better word. 

Framing is the issue imo.

I dunno thinking about it I am unsure if consciouness can self-reflect as god as it is god. But maybe that is to much thinking. I am certainly not realized lol I way way way off some deep profound realization currently.

Also again to summarize the whole theory in a sense in case anyone follows.Everyone can experiene any strucutre and any state it's just different traditions map on to these structure-stages. Like vipassana causal, dzogchen non-dual, dream yoga dream state etc. 

Then psychedelics are a big question mark as it sort of goes beyond what 3D reality teaches and shows. As well as maps and traditions. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Consilience]

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

For me it sounds like that you give your authority over yourself to another. there is no other. there is only you, you are the Life. it has to flow with absolute freedom

That’s not how the successful teacher student relationship works. As you yourself mentioned, there is no other. So the teacher is merely lighting the latent possibility within yourself, reflecting back what is possible as both you and as no one at all. The teacher is a pure emptiness embodied, which is why they are trust worthy enough to teach. When there is no one behind the eyes of the guru, there is literally no one to give your authority over to, which is precisely why you can trust them! Finding the right teacher is difficult, often only appearing until the student is actually ready to wake up.

37 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It means: i don't trust in me. So i trust in you. I'm absolutely trustworthy, since I'm the only source of trust. There can't be other. Someone could inspire you, but after that, you are alone

You are not trustworthy unless you have complete integrity in the relative domain. Don’t confuse absolute trust with relative trust. Relative trust is the metric you can use to measure whether you’ve actually realized absolute trust.

To truly trust, you must be completely fearless. To be completely fearless, you’d need to know what you are. To know what you are would mean you are awakened. Are you awake? Are you actually trustworthy, or are you just bullshitting yourself by conflating absolute and relative truths? 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Consilience

[Consilience]

@Breakingthewall And again, reference any enlightened master that didn’t have teachers.

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, Consilience said:

You are not trustworthy unless you have complete integrity in the relative domain. Don’t confuse absolute trust with relative trust. Relative trust is the metric you can use to measure whether you’ve actually realized absolute trust.

Well, It is you who, by embracing the truth, must tend to complete integrity, to remove any impurity. but having some impurities, remnants of humanity, does not mean that you are not trustworthy, means that the process is not complete. I don't like the expression "realize the truth" expresses a "you" realizing "something", implies that you did in the past. you are. and since you are the truth, the impurity is erased naturally. It seems to me (and perhaps due to great ignorance) that the path of the monk makes the path from the opposite approach: first, clean. later you will be. Seems forced.  maybe it's the only way without the help of psychedelics. but intuitively I would say that it is a path that almost always stays in the middle.  

10 hours ago, Consilience said:

@Breakingthewall And again, reference any enlightened master that didn’t have teachers.

For example maharishi. If I'm not wrong, he became full awakes pontaneously. I am not saying that teachers are not needed, there are many traps and especially at the beginning of the process they can be of great help. What are you talking about, a fully enlightened teacher who is in direct presence with a student and helps him complete the process....I don't know. this is far from my experience and that of most. How many teachers like that are there? who are they? who values it? The student who is not awake? But I'm open to the possibility 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[_Archangel_]

ok this is interesting, if you go to minute 19.34 ,  he discuss a possible method to discover if someone in NOT an Arahat....
then goes on to say that he doesn't claim to be fully liberated (i would say he is though).
 

 

[Salvijus]

12 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

ok this is interesting, if you go to minute 19.34 ,  he discuss a possible method to discover if someone in NOT an Arahat....
then goes on to say that he doesn't claim to be fully liberated (i would say he is though).
 

 

That's a really good share, thank u.

He even confirms my idea of how to test if someone is liberated. I couldn't be happier. What he sayed about dissolving the body is also amazing. That's why i like the theory of goenkas vipassana. It makes so much sense to me. I wonder if that stage ever comes from simply being aware of awareness/ do nothing practice.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Salvijus

[_Archangel_]

@Salvijus this humbleness and honesty from a master struck me, you don't see it everyday