What’s the difference between Sadhguru & Shinzen Young?

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Salvijus Shinzen is definitely above a stream enterer the desire to meditate is gone and other charateristics. You can obviously just do it, yet consciouness is just something different. There is no real technique in that sense this is what I believe it's like hearing stories of WWII where people have realized permant enlightenment non-dualy as they were shocked to death basically and their "ego" is gone. 

Their level of realization now is legit, yet how do you compare it to others to gain clarity similar to Eckhart Tolle's story for example suddenly seeing white light and entering it is a common description in many paths from muslim I bet to christian etc and is an indication of a casual state experience IIRC. 

So a christain and a vispasanna practicionars have the same degress of realization through different practices and might use different words. Imo Wilber did a great job making ready to use distinctions here. So even let's say TIER 4 can be easily speculated IMO. I don't know them by heart. Of course the practice matters more. Just having spiritual concepts is useful even when they are not 100% correct and accurate. It helps to have a sense of direction. 



 

[Bojan V]

@Salvijus

11 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

And i didn't mean if somebody stops trying he had reached the final goal. I meant sadhguru has reached the final goal of liberation then explored all the facets of consciouness (mystism) and then stopped meditating and now just serves humanity.

What is a final goal to you?

I've read some stuff from Neo-Theosophy and acording to them what we call a final goal of liberation is only a beginning of higher journey in a cosmic sheme of things.

What would be the ultimate Hight where there is no higher anymore?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Bojan V

[Salvijus]

6 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Shinzen is definitely above a stream enterer the desire to meditate is gone and other charateristics.

But is he full arahant?

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

23 minutes ago, Bojan V said:

@Salvijus

What is a final goal to you?

I've read some stuff from Neo-Theosophy and and acording to them what we call a final goal of liberation is only a beginning of higher journey in a cosmic sheme of things.

What would be the ultimate Hight where there is no higher anymore?

In this context when i say highest goal i mean full dissolution of ego. Total wipe out of samskaras and defilements. That's very buddhist version of full enlightenment/liberation.

Mystism is like exploration of different dimensions of consciouness.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[Bojan V]

@Salvijus

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

In this context when i say highest goal i mean full dissolution of ego. Total wipe out of samskaras and defilements. That's very buddhist version of full enlightenment/liberation.

Mystism is like explanation of different dimensions of consciouness.

Oh i see. But what about after full dissolution of ego? That is what i would like to know your view about it.

[Salvijus]

36 minutes ago, Bojan V said:

I've read some stuff from Neo-Theosophy and acording to them what we call a final goal of liberation is only a beginning of higher journey in a cosmic sheme of things

Yea it's a mindfuck when different traditions give different definitions of what the highest goal is ? 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Salvijus Yes and how do they differ to someone not practicing your technique there are similarties. I did kriya yoga and
you can compare it to shinzens flow and expansion and contraction technique and add a zen practice and the only thing different would be it's exclusive emphasis on different parts of the chakra system as well as body parts and movements. Mudras, Yandras everything can help it depends. In that sense context and experience matters a lot. issue is it's often not properly conveyed imo. and compared. I am giving my best here I did kriya yoga only for 2 months as it was to rigorous even more than zen. Doing it for 3h a day at the end is to much I liked the practice a lot. 

You can compare the energetic kriya component of kriya to Shinzen flow and working with flow and energies of the body in sight,sound,touch,space. It has a more borad exclusive emphasis and not and inclusive narrow emphasis which both can be utilized with both techniques IMO. Kriya Yoga has so many. Shinzens fits my highly modern lifestyle more as the wording is very appealing to me and simple as well as complex enough. Kriya Yoga was very technical in it's own sense with working with body movements more, breathing etc. 

I also had what people would call a kundalini awakening IIRC from doing zen meditation but I never did kundalini meditations or smth. like this. It would help to have more discussions that are based on experience and are sincerely considered without a hateful, spiteful, greedy and or non-serious manner.
 

18 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But is he full arahant?

Dunno what he says about this but I'd rate him above Ingram and Ingram says he is a full arhat as far as I know. I don't think Ingram has an inch of what Shinzen actually has embodied. like not even close maybe like 2% close for him 10%. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Jodistrict]

When Shinzen was in Los Angeles, he practiced with Rinzai Zen master Joshu Sasaki Roshi.  He is also a monk in the Shingon tradition, which is a Vajrayana sect in Japan.  The meditation technique that he teaches is based on Vipassana.  He is primarily a meditation teacher for advanced students.  When the Dalai Lama came to visit Sasaki Roshi, Shinzen was their translator, since he speaks Japanese and had deep knowledge of both Vajrayana and Zen.  Two enlightened masters chose Shinzen to be their translator.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Consilience]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Every path is energetic by that logic.

But zen is the path of awareness predominantly.

Kriya is a path of learning to manipulate various energies in the body and outside of body. 

They are very different in many ways.

I think im being fair in saying this.

I disagree. It’s true Zen isn’t about manipulating energies in the same way Kriya is, but Zen emphasizes movement, riding the ox, letting the life energy move you heavily. There’s a quote by one of the great Zen masters Hakuin,

“Meditation in the midst of activity is a thousand times superior to meditation in stillness.”

Have you meet a living Zen master who openly transmits? Enormous, ENORMOUS, amounts of energy. 

And no, not all paths emphasize this energy element by this logic. Theravada Buddhism or Christina Mysticism do not, for example. 

[Salvijus]

13 minutes ago, Bojan V said:

@Salvijus

Oh i see. But what about after full dissolution of ego? That is what i would like to know your view about it.

Mmmmm... idk actually also. ive heard few options here. One is total dissolution and nirvana. Means when the physical body dies. Soul kinda merges with the source and you're gone. But idk... it's hard to wrap my mind around this version.

Ooor, u achieve a rainbow body, meaning you can be an ascended master like Jesus Christ. Float around in other realms. 

Aaa... i really lack knowledge here myself ? 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Jodistrict UM is a bit broader to say it's only Vipassana yes that is true yet he categorizes it as a mixture between rinzai zen and vispasanna currently as far as I know. Did not work with him years ago where all of this was still cooking. 

The documents from him and Wiki explain this IIRC.

Edited July 15, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Salvijus]

10 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Have you meet a living Zen master who openly transmits? Enormous, ENORMOUS, amounts of energy. 

And no, not all paths emphasize this energy element by this logic. Theravada Buddhism or Christina Mysticism do not, for example. 

No i didn't. I don't doubt what you're saying tho.

I understand your argument that zen produces enourmous energy. I practice zen a lot. My body trembles with prana when i simply sit. 

I would argue all paths are about energy in the end. Even christianity.. in a state of love the energy is flowing and refining itself making the alchemical processes that transform every molicule and heals the soul. Etc. Love itself is the highest form of energy. (According to some wise dude)

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[Jodistrict]

9 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

@Jodistrict UM is a bit broader to say it's only Vipassana yes that is true yet he categorizes it as a mixture between rinzai zen and vispasanna currently as far as I know. Did not work with him years ago where all of this was still cooking. 

The documents from him and Wiki explain this IIRC.

When I was studying with him years ago, he called it Vipassana.

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Jodistrict Here you go from the author himself. So much stuff get's lost in context. Yes it's Vipassana and not only Vipasanna. As he system of teaching or his teachings is called Unified Mindfulness which emphasises mahsi style vipassana and also includes other traditions the other importance he stresses even more at higher levels is expansions and contractions and his experiences with creating his style of teaching. 

https://www.shinzen.org/from-vipassana-to-zen/

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

Yes and how do they differ to someone not practicing your technique there are similarties

I think zen cultivates a single form of energy. But that form of energy is not the only one there is. They leave out sexual energy and outside energies and many other types of energies. Love is also a different kind of energy i believe.

Zen is about cultivating primordial energy of awareness. Cultivating nothingness presence energy. Which is good. The highest form of energy is primordial energy probably. So they're going straight to the point. Very smart people.

Kriya is also about that but there are all kinds of wacky things going on there also. They can create entities, do astral travel (leaving the body at will), do energy healing, have siddhic powers, explore wacky states of consciouness. It's very broad. Im not even qualified to speak about it honestly.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Salvijus Oh yes Kriya seems to go into that direction with astral travel and healing I am unsure what I read IIRC they demphasized some sidhis. I am unsure what is meant with sexual energy I do think any practicinor would simply as it should be channeld towards spirit. I don't want sex cults to erupt at my retreat or people eying each other out and playing lovers. That is not the spirit of any retreat I'd attend that is a festival or event. I have nothing against people having sex on a retreat even if my guru would do it as it's just healthy living. The issue often is the structure of the system itself. Mooji having sex with a bunch of women and teaching I would not mind, yet drama happens.  

I mean Shinzen even made a video he has nothing against sex as people are super conservative sometimes. Which is fine I would maybe be to juvenile to make a video to explain something so obvious. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[ValiantSalvatore]

For an overview of the differences. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[Raptorsin7]

6 hours ago, Bojan V said:

@Raptorsin7

He is to pushy with Sadhguru and is using all the tactics other fundamentalists are using. All who do not conform to sadhguruism are wrong and in error. 

No, he experienced the profound benefits of his practices, and he knows that everyone who is doubting him here is not doing it based on direct experience, but their own projections and biases.

I was very resistant to doing any Sadhguru practices, but I finally got initiated into Suriya kriya and it has completely changed my outlook on Isha and Sadhguru.

@Salvijus told me this is exactly what would happen from my initiation into suriya kriya, and that's exactly what happened.

But I don't rule out the possibility that Sadhguru may have some flaws or shadow elements that people may respond be reacting to. 

[Spiral Wizard]

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Shinzen has reached the final goal of buddhists enlightenment? I watched a few of his videos i think he still practices. Could be wrong

In this video Shinzen mentions that his direct day to day experience ranges from a highly enlightened state to a state that someone who has never meditated is in. 

Keep in mind, this is 12 years ago. I don’t know how it’s right now but in a video from 3 years ago he basically said the same. 

I definitely admire his indifference towards this fluctuation but I’ve also heard other teachers say that there is a stage of enlightenment beyond that where there is no more fluctuation, just firmly rooted in the ground of enlightenment 24/7. 

 

What do you think?

[Salvijus]

@Spiral Wizard he's okey i guess. I didn't get his describtion of enlightenment tho, very confusing. Seems to be awake to some degree and deservers recognition. I just don’t think of him as godlike. I think there should be more awake buddhists then him somewhere. I don't know many of them. I like goenka much more then shinzen. He has a very peculiar vibe that draws me in when he speaks. Almost like poetry of buddha's silence radiating. And even goenka was not fully enlightened but at least i could feel some grace flowing from him. Would be interesting to see a fully woke buddhist i think.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Salvijus