Recommend a Therapist/Zen Master

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

Being poor and not having home where to live is not a problem that you're too disconneced from god. It can be phrased that is problem that society is too disconneced from it, but that's an another discussion. That you don't have home cannot be "cured" only by more god, but you really need to take practical steps towards better future. Good luck at least making that poor guy meditate when it's raining outside and (s)he doesn't have anything to eat and (s)he is sleeping top of cardboard.

[Devin]

25 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

Being poor and not having home where to live is not a problem that you're too disconneced from god. It can be phrased that is problem that society is too disconneced from it, but that's an another discussion. That you don't have home cannot be "cured" only by more god, but you really need to take practical steps towards better future. Good luck at least making that poor guy meditate when it's raining outside and (s)he doesn't have anything to eat and (s)he is sleeping top of cardboard.

Why are they poor?

Is it possible it's because they don't fear not having a home or food? They don't fear the judgement of others that drives you? I admit it is often the case that they fear something more than that, and those fears are just relegated lower down the pile; and they are hurting people.

And what do you define as meditation? What are they doing with their time?

You ever read about Diogenes?

Edited July 13, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

Fear is not your only or even the best motivator, contemplate towards that and you can see what I could respond to your last message. 

1 hour ago, Devin said:

And what do you define as meditation? What are they doing with their time?

I know one guy who only smokes and drinks and I wouldn't say that he is any closer to god than being healthy. He just stares into nothingness, propably not thinking too much. That being said I wouldn't suggest being homeless as a spiritual practice, but maybe for a couple of days and even that wouldn't the real thing which is without your knowledge, spiritual skills and way of looking things.

1 hour ago, Devin said:

Why are they poor?

Can't you really see how lucky you are that you had even your level of parenting, school, friends, shelter, food etc. You are deeply denying the suffering and life poor people have. Life is not as good and easy for all that it was for you, keep that in your mind. It's not that they chose their life to be that way, but it was pretty much what was given. Most of them are so unhappy and powerless that changing anything won't come to their mind even. Of course they can change their life with a help, but doing it alone can be hard if you've been homeless for decades.

[Devin]

14 hours ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

Fear is not your only or even the best motivator, contemplate towards that and you can see what I could respond to your last message. 

I know one guy who only smokes and drinks and I wouldn't say that he is any closer to god than being healthy. He just stares into nothingness, propably not thinking too much. That being said I wouldn't suggest being homeless as a spiritual practice, but maybe for a couple of days and even that wouldn't the real thing which is without your knowledge, spiritual skills and way of looking things.

Can't you really see how lucky you are that you had even your level of parenting, school, friends, shelter, food etc. You are deeply denying the suffering and life poor people have. Life is not as good and easy for all that it was for you, keep that in your mind. It's not that they chose their life to be that way, but it was pretty much what was given. Most of them are so unhappy and powerless that changing anything won't come to their mind even. Of course they can change their life with a help, but doing it alone can be hard if you've been homeless for decades.

Fear is what drives what you're saying about needing a home and health.

I obviously never implied the poor don't suffer. Most are poor because of mental illness or drug addiction, their problem is not that they're poor. If they were poor without those things, and there are many that are, I don't see how you could say they would need to be taught to work to find peace.

Following society in the 9 to 5 grind unless you're not doing it for money as the primary reason; is usually a mental illness, do you think most of those people are happy and feel completely in control of determining their lives? But I guess I don't know that that is what you were saying they should do by learn to work, maybe you're teaching them to day trade while they feed the pigeons.

Seems to me starting and living with nothing could be beneficial in the long run, but like you said I'm not speaking from experience. I'm in the states and it's ridiculously easy to make money, the problem tends to be fear of not having rather than the ability to have.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

Never said grinding at normal work makes you most happy, but it just is good stepping stone for homeless and I guess that he doesn't have laptop lying around with him so he could start trading some bitcoins. I understand that the skips are useful, but in that particular case I'd start from the basics and when they are in good shape I could start going more to spiritual stuff with him. Also you should see that, because he has been in very bad environment he probably isn't ready to drop some core beliefs and would call your teachings bullshit.

[Devin]

19 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

Never said grinding at normal work makes you most happy, but it just is good stepping stone for homeless and I guess that he doesn't have laptop lying around with him so he could start trading some bitcoins. I understand that the skips are useful, but in that particular case I'd start from the basics and when they are in good shape I could start going more to spiritual stuff with him. Also you should see that, because he has been in very bad environment he probably isn't ready to drop some core beliefs and would call your teachings bullshit.

I'm not advocating for teaching them anything, there would be no reason for them to call my bullshit, I wouldn't teach them or anyone. I think all teachings are bullshit myself.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

You are just circling around the topic. I said that if you want to evolve to deep spiritual topics it'd be beneficial to have basics mastered. As you saw from my example that without good founding people aren't ready to do deep spiritual work, because they are too much in denial and they think about their suffering. Most likely they wouldn't even understand the reason to meditate, because they would laugh at you and ask "will I get something to eat from doing so". If you'd say you get something even better they'd just continue laughing even more.

[Devin]

7 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

You are just circling around the topic. I said that if you want to evolve to deep spiritual topics it'd be beneficial to have basics mastered. As you saw from my example that without good founding people aren't ready to do deep spiritual work, because they are too much in denial and they think about their suffering. Most likely they wouldn't even understand the reason to meditate, because they would laugh at you and ask "will I get something to eat from doing so". If you'd say you get something even better they'd just continue laughing even more.

Meditation is something we naturally do, you don't have to tell them to meditate. You don't have to tell them to do anything.

Who was the first enlightened, who taught them?

Edited July 14, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

You are unbeliavable in your skill not to answer to thing what the other one said. Yeah, you don't need to tell them anything and most likely their life won't change and they are stuck being poor, angry to the society and sad with all possible illnesses. Again this conversation wasn't about should you do something or not, but is mastering basic stuff distraction as you phrased it or not. To me it is really weird that you don't see the obvious here. Again if you think that being poor in the streets is better life than not being then why wouldn't you join in to the parties.

[Devin]

16 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

You are unbeliavable in your skill not to answer to thing what the other one said. Yeah, you don't need to tell them anything and most likely their life won't change and they are stuck being poor, angry to the society and sad with all possible illnesses. Again this conversation wasn't about should you do something or not, but is mastering basic stuff distraction as you phrased it or not. To me it is really weird that you don't see the obvious here. Again if you think that being poor in the streets is better life than not being then why wouldn't you join in to the parties.

I didn't say it was a better life.

I don't know what I'm not answering, I didn't see a question.

Do you think teaching someone to work, something I think would be very hard if they are not already trying themselves, do you think you would get to a point with that person to teach them spiritually and they be receptive?

Let me offer a different scenario; you show them love. Does there life get better? Do they drop fears that are holding them back?

Edited July 14, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

First you said that focusing to basic stuff in life is a distraction. Then I explained to you that if you don't focus to basic stuff you're going to end up in a situation in life that you don't like. Basicly I'm trying to show the importance of making great decisions and not fully expecting meditation to fill your stomach and make you healthy with good relationships which aren't abusing you or doing any more harm to you. Then you agreed that the life on the streets isn't better. Could we say that taking care of your life is not a distraction from the perspective of having good life and you can't meditate yourself out of all situations without taking actions?

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

First you said that focusing to basic stuff in life is a distraction. Then I explained to you that if you don't focus to basic stuff you're going to end up in a situation in life that you don't like. Basicly I'm trying to show the importance of making great decisions and not fully expecting meditation to fill your stomach and make you healthy with good relationships which aren't abusing you or doing any more harm to you. Then you agreed that the life on the streets isn't better. Could we say that taking care of your life is not a distraction from the perspective of having good life and you can't meditate yourself out of all situations without taking actions?

I don't believe there is such a thing as a good or bad life. I agree "you can't meditate yourself out of all situations without taking actions" I'm not advocating for meditation in regards to anything. 

Do you think teaching someone to work, something I think would be very hard if they are not already trying themselves, do you think you would get to a point with that person to teach them spiritually and they be receptive?

Let me offer a different scenario; you show them love. Does there life get better? Do they drop fears that are holding them back?

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

You're lost confucing absolute truth with relative domain. Yeah there maybe isn't bad or good life from certain perspective, because what the terms good or bad even mean. Still I guess you agree that you want your life to be extremely enjoyable and if not why would you ask questions about masters and where to find them. Yeah I absolutely believe that if you give enough time and needed conditions anyone could change their life for good. The problem in being stuck in bad life situation is not that they aren't trying, but that they need little help from someone to get right back to track.

[Devin]

31 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Devin

You're lost confucing absolute truth with relative domain. Yeah there maybe isn't bad or good life from certain perspective, because what the terms good or bad even mean. Still I guess you agree that you want your life to be extremely enjoyable and if not why would you ask questions about masters and where to find them. Yeah I absolutely believe that if you give enough time and needed conditions anyone could change their life for good. The problem in being stuck in bad life situation is not that they aren't trying, but that they need little help from someone to get right back to track.

Enjoying life has nothing to do with having a house or groceries, if you fear losing those things it's very hard to enjoy life, teaching people they need to work and buy housing and groceries is teaching fear.

There is a healthy way to think about working and paying for housing and food though; if you do it to be part of society for the reason of being in a position to love those people in society, 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Devin

[Kksd74628]

@Devin

I agree, enjoying life requires that you accept present moment as it is and feel the connection to the world "around you". It's not that you need to work, but you could if you want its benefits that it offers. You could do experiment and ask couple homeless people on the streets that if they could start working somewhere and have house would the do it. Ask for example 10 or 15 people to guarantee broader perspective and it can prove me wrong or right, but at least it gives perspective to the thing from the right people.