Leo and the Mentally Ill

[Danioover9000]

@Mindful Bum  How are you now? Learnt anything new while reading this thread?

[Carl-Richard]

47 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Mindful Bum  How are you now? Learnt anything new while reading this thread?

What are you doing? lol

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Proserpina said:

Yes.  It's just that the entities involved in both experiences have a continuation, a sentience.  You can't really split it up.  It all flows together, intelligently.  I suspect they don't have the psychosis aspects because they've dissolved all beliefs (non schizophrenic mystic).  Or perhaps they lack some spiritual gifts or knowledge.  I'm not sure.  

I bet that if you were to take all the big contemporary mystics and screen them for psychiatric illnesses, the ratio of people with psychotic illnesses would be the same or less than the rest of the population.

[Razard86]

9 hours ago, TurquoiseAngel said:

Simple terms, you don't know what you don't know.

Even though I grew up with some members of my family struggling with their mental health,  had no interest or understanding of mental illness at all, until it happened to my daughter. She is only 15 but started showing signs at 11. It is been a long road for myself and for her to accept and make sense of what is going on and I must say, it is making myself a better person but if I had a choice between an offspring with zero mental health issues like me or a daughter like I have, I would still choose no mental health issues...life is already hard enough, being human is already complicated enough...why throw more in? However as I said, like in all situations in my life, I make the most of it to exercise patience, compassion, open mind, resilience, trust and creative ways of doing things + higher levels of communication.

For example. I just got a new job 5 days ago and joined a project that is nearly finished. It is to do with services for children who struggle with their mental health - complete coincidence. There must be 8 to 10 people involved in the project and none have direct experience but because I have, i was able to pick up a very small but crucial detail and highlighted it to them. Now, the project will have to be fixed and it will require some meetings and approvals (a very bureaucratic system) but it is for the better  and will save a huge mistake that was being made. There was a general feeling that something was wrong and missing but nobody could envision a solution. New girl in the team solved it for them and earned a few brownie points.

 

 

Nice I'm glad you were able to contribute your perspective at such a crucial time. More people should follow your example and share their perspective with others. Some people are afraid but everybody's perspective has value and your story highlights just that.

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

   I'm not a lawyer or judge, and trolling is not nice.

Seems to me you are a judge, you've had me on trial for a minute. May I be released?

[Proserpina]

40 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I bet that if you were to take all the big contemporary mystics and screen them for psychiatric illnesses, the ratio of people with psychotic illnesses would be the same or less than the rest of the population.

I think it's likely they've dissolved their beliefs.  In which ever way they did.  I was directed that I was new on the path because I had psychosis but also advanced.  Like a savant. 

[Proserpina]

@Carl-Richard But also many mystics would still be on the spectrum for sensing entities, of any kind to a higher degree than usual.  Because it all flows together

Edited July 16, 2022 by Proserpina

[Proserpina]

14 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Ahh a kindred spirit!!! Its nice to meet someone who understands!! You too went to the void and returned!!! Yes isn't it amazing that you find out we been lying to ourselves our entire life? Its so freaking funny!! We literally have to lie to stay as a human!! Its the funniest thing!! But yes I'm glad you understand. All those experiences also to me is the greatest accomplishment to me in my life because I finally got to experience the truth, and I STILL haven't gone as deep as I would like. 

But yes thank you for this post, I feel so loved when another can relate to what I went through. And yes meditation is key, you can remain calm by breathwork and surrendering to the moment. What helps me is I truly believe that I can remain calm. As long as I focus on that I am good. We are all capable of this, some just need more training than others and I know I am no where near the best at centering myself.

♥ ♥ 

Love your presence on this forum.  

 

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Proserpina said:

♥ ♥ 

Love your presence on this forum.  

 

Right back at ya! ummmm how were you able to send little black hearts? - this is the best I can do lol.

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

17 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Seems to me you are a judge, you've had me on trial for a minute. May I be released?

   You are trolling, and making assumptions about me. Stop it now, it's not funny anymore.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

18 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What are you doing? lol

   Interacting with the OP, making him reflect a bit.

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Carl-Richard

   Interacting with the OP, making him reflect a bit.

You're playing cop and derailing the thread. I've told you to stop doing that.

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86

   You are trolling, and making assumptions about me. Stop it now, it's not funny anymore.

I am trolling? Explain. Notice...nobody else has that interpretation. But I'm open to this perspective. In what way am I trolling? Also what assumptions am I making? How do you know you aren't making assumptions? How do you know right now this isn't projection? But again I'm open to this so please explain. Don't forget to use examples.

[Danioover9000]

@Mindful Bum

On 7/13/2022 at 4:42 AM, Mindful Bum said:

I just watched Leo's video, The Next Evolution Of Actualized.org Teachings, which includes a segment on mental illness. I've been consuming Leo's videos for several years now, and I've always appreciated his insights, but this segment was one of the rare occasions where his messaging kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like he reinforced the stigma around mental health and framed the whole thing in a way that was surprisingly naïve and narrow-minded. There are many implicit assumptions and very little nuance. Ironically, his intention to be more cautious was conveyed in a way that seems dismissive, apathetic, and woefully out of touch. 

I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Let's have a respectful conversation about it. You can click the link above to watch the segment (it's only a couple minutes), or you can read the transcript below. What parts stood out to you? What was your gut reaction?
 

 

 

   After re-reading that segment, I also realized that it's not just the lack of experience, but maybe the way he communicates that, that it didn't feel sincere despite his somber tonality. If he had access to some kind of editor, that's got experience tailoring and manipulating communications in a charismatic way, this would be one thing such a person points out to better not say, and possibly more damage his credibility.

   Things are better left unsaid, or silence is golden, meaning that you shouldn't comment on things which you don't have a lot of experience on, of a lack of experience, other wise the cat's out of the bag, hard to back paddle what's said. Destiny would severely attack such a person for miscommunicating that way. I'm probably reading this too deeply though, but is this similar to what you thought and felt in that time watching the video?

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

You're playing cop and derailing the thread. I've told you to stop doing that.

   How am I playing cop and derailing the thread? Am I not sticking to topic in this thread? I am more a literal person, so you have to clearly tell me if I'm causing trouble or not inside this thread, or if you want me in this forum or not, otherwise I'm staying in this forum until I outgrow this place. @Razard86 told me I'm a judge, but that's not the case. He's better being literal and tell exactly what's wrong here, rather than resorting to joking or trolling me with this twisted metaphorical game.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

How am I playing cop and derailing the thread?

Telling people to stay on topic and then creating a completely new dialogue tree out of that by arguing about it. You're allowed to say your opinion on whether something is off topic or not, but don't hijack the thread with it. I think it's fine to spend some time clarifying our general stances on mental health so that we know what we're talking about, and OP himself agrees with that. If we instead had started talking about something completely unrelated like nofap or dating, then maybe correcting course would be more appropriate.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Telling people to stay on topic and then creating a completely new dialogue tree out of that by arguing about it. You're allowed to say your opinion on whether something is off topic or not, but don't hijack the thread with it. I think it's fine to spend some time clarifying our general stances on mental health so that we know what we're talking about, and OP himself agrees with that. If we instead had started talking about something completely unrelated like nofap or dating, then maybe correcting course would be more appropriate.

   Okay, I see my mistake, I was briefly responding at that other user for joking at me, I'm stop that and stick to OP topic.

[Elisabeth]

On 14/07/2022 at 0:53 AM, Mindful Bum said:

@Leo Gura I hear what you're saying, but you still haven't clearly defined mental illness. And for good reason: a clear definition doesn't exist. The mental health field has taken the infinite possibilities of the human mind and behavior, and forced everyone into finite categories that are vaguely defined and usually dependent on self-reporting. Complicating the issue further is the reality that many mental health disorders are defined and diagnosed primarily as a convenience for medical insurance and billing purposes.

For many people, their first mental health diagnosis comes from a mental health professional that their parents force them to visit and who is financially incentivized to make a diagnosis, prescribe medications, etc., often after a single visit. These kids are given diagnoses/labels that more often than not create limiting beliefs about themselves. These labels follow them through life, shaping their perception and future, despite the fact that the diagnosis was formed from a single disinterested person's interpretation of the patient's responses to a handful of contrived questions. 

Mental health (and therefore mental illness) is just as infinite and undefinable as consciousness. And the two are intrinsically linked, just like personal development and spirituality. In actuality, there are no hard boundaries between these domains. So when you talk about "the mentally ill" as if it's a real and meaningful category of people, you come across as ignorant. Because if you had even a basic understanding of modern mental healthcare, you wouldn't be wielding such a loaded term so carelessly. 

The thing is...I know you DO have the necessary knowledge and critical thinking skills necessary to deconstruct "mental illness." I've thoroughly enjoyed the many hours of video content you've published on deconstructing the myth of science. You even specifically mention the limits of modern medicine in this clip from Assumption Is The Mother Of All Fuck-ups. So from my perspective, you are uniquely qualified to help this huge demographic that suffers from mental health disorders--for example, by revealing how most diagnoses are highly subjective inventions of for-profit organizations--but instead, you seem to have accepted uncritically the idea that there are only two kinds of people in this world: those who are mentally ill (/dramatic/dysfunctional) and those who are not...and the former should be ignored? 

I understand that actualized.org isn't geared toward people suffering from extreme forms of mental illness, nor is it the best resource for helping such people. I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I am suggesting is that you investigate your seemingly rigid beliefs about "the mentally ill" and learn about psychology/neurobiology at least to a point where you recognize we're all on the same spectrum; no fundamental difference exists. 

This demographic (i.e., those with mental health issues) is MUCH bigger than you think, and your teachings have a much greater healing potential than you think. The effectiveness of psychedelics, meditation, and mystical experiences as treatments for mental illness has shown to be far superior to psychotherapy and/or medication.

This IS your wheelhouse, Leo. 

Hear, hear. I must reiterate.

The boundary between health and illness, especially mental health and illness, is so fuzzy. At some levels at least, there's no distinction between "healing" and "personal development". 

[Mindful Bum]

7 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   After re-reading that segment, I also realized that it's not just the lack of experience, but maybe the way he communicates that, that it didn't feel sincere despite his somber tonality. If he had access to some kind of editor, that's got experience tailoring and manipulating communications in a charismatic way, this would be one thing such a person points out to better not say, and possibly more damage his credibility.

   Things are better left unsaid, or silence is golden, meaning that you shouldn't comment on things which you don't have a lot of experience on, of a lack of experience, other wise the cat's out of the bag, hard to back paddle what's said. Destiny would severely attack such a person for miscommunicating that way. I'm probably reading this too deeply though, but is this similar to what you thought and felt in that time watching the video?

I have a lot of experience dealing with mental health issues, both personally (I've suffered from depression) and academically (I'm studying to become a psychedelic therapist). So to me, Leo's ignorance is immediately obvious from the comments he made. Experts in the field don't throw around phrases like "the mentally ill" and they certainly don't use it as a valid stereotype. It's obvious to me that Leo has a very specific preconception about people with mental illness, and it hinders his ability to connect with that part of his audience. But his comments aren't just out of touch, they're potentially harmful. The stigma around mental health is a real problem that adds to suffering and death. Suggesting that people with mental health issues are hopelessly dramatic and should be avoided...to me, that's beyond ignorant; that's potentially dangerous. Not to mention, it added nothing to the video and was counterproductive to his stated intention of being more considerate of those viewers. His comments weren't like wildly offensive to me...I just think there's a lot of room for improvement, and I was curious to know how other forum members felt about it.

[Danioover9000]

@Mindful Bum

28 minutes ago, Mindful Bum said:

I have a lot of experience dealing with mental health issues, both personally (I've suffered from depression) and academically (I'm studying to become a psychedelic therapist). So to me, Leo's ignorance is immediately obvious from the comments he made. Experts in the field don't throw around phrases like "the mentally ill" and they certainly don't use it as a valid stereotype. It's obvious to me that Leo has a very specific preconception about people with mental illness, and it hinders his ability to connect with that part of his audience. But his comments aren't just out of touch, they're potentially harmful. The stigma around mental health is a real problem that adds to suffering and death. Suggesting that people with mental health issues are hopelessly dramatic and should be avoided...to me, that's beyond ignorant; that's potentially dangerous. Not to mention, it added nothing to the video and was counterproductive to his stated intention of being more considerate of those viewers. His comments weren't like wildly offensive to me...I just think there's a lot of room for improvement, and I was curious to know how other forum members felt about it.

   Ah okay, I understand your view much more.

   So, to further explain myself about what I think of the video and give a fairer take, what I do like about the video, is that Leo has attempted to draw the line on the sand, on where he stands and where his work stands in relation to those suffering from mental health issues, and isn't an exact repeat in what he said in the video on the dangers of spirituality as he did this a few times before. What I do think he can improve on in his rhetoric here, is more distinctly seperate the use of the words those suffering from 'mental health issues', from those with 'mental disorders', from those with 'mental illness', and those with cognitive function/dysfunctional challenges. Of course, as he said in the video, he is not an expert in the mental health and mental disorders field, and it does show in the video where at times it was better to use mental disorders instead of mental health or mental illness. This, in fact, is good to know to those who are suffering from some mental health issue like depression, short to chronic, or grief or very strong negative emotions, or some other ailment of the mind that affects one's state of being, versus those who have mental disorders like schizophrenia, Borderline personality disorder, bi-polar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, multiple personality disorder, hyper mania, because Leo is ill equipped to dealing with such cases and so is Actualized.org. Those suffering from mental health issues and have mental disorders, must seek professional help from experts who have both the theory and experience dealing with such cases, like therapists or psychologists. Now, when it comes to mental health related to strong negative emotions, there's a litle bit of leeway here that I give, because a few moderators here do provide emotional support to those going through an emotional based mental health issue, like grief for example, and on top of that they do encourage the person suffering to seek professional help if possible.

   Being here, doing personal development work, assumes a certain range of mental health and stability, and, to me, the lower ranges is when you have the mild disorders, or when you have mild mental health issues, that doing basic self help from here or some other place is probably ok to do, and probably ok to do other traditional spiritual practices like meditation, contemplation, concentration exercises etc, all assuming responsible use and safe use. It's already one of my rules being here, for myself, that as soon as I feel verg strong negative emotions, I stop, take a break, and have the number ready to speak to a professional if I need, or go and talk to a person I know and trust that can provide emotional support. This is rare to me as I can process strong emotions and melt it off of me through mindfulness though, so listen to what you're capable of managing in this work is probably the best thing anyone can do in this work. 

   About the bit when he said it's dramatic if he was friends or is living with those suffering from mental health issues, yes I agree it was a bit of a strange wording, again from not making the language more distinct here, so I'll assume two possibilities: he's talking about those suffering from mental health issues like strong negative emotions, and those who have mental disorders. I can understand, in both cases, if what he meant to say, was that it's ABNORMALLY STRESSFUL. I think that's a much better wording here, because I've seen some people, of both cases in different parts of my life, and the situations, I can definitely say the most consistent factor was higher stress from dealing with people who have states of strong negative emotions, and who have radically different cognitive patterns than the normal person, that it is more stressful to try to manage either case, almost comparable to a parent taking care of a child with one of those mentak disorders,  it's far more stressful. I think that was what he really meant to say, which I can see how that does lead to increase in drama. It's just that I hold meanings differently when I hear the word 'drama', as in that's usually a trait of tv shows or movies or theatres and probably most people hold similar meanings when they think of drama.