Leo and the Mentally Ill

[Thought Art]

@Mindful Bum Idk man, mental illness is sort of for professionals. It’s too much of a liability IMO…

I mean, Connor Murphy vs idk, the average Actualized.org participant are pretty different. 

[puporing]

@Mindful Bum There're plenty of people on this forum who offer support unconditionally when someone does share about their mental health struggles I feel (I'm not saying they should rely on this though). The thing is people need to do the work also internally or it can turn into another form of co-dependency. So there's a balance to strike there... getting help externally and doing the work to heal.

We shouldn't expect one person to fill every role out there to fill. For example, we can't expect Leo to diagnose a medical condition either for each person having health issues, they should seek other resources (on top of what they gain from here). I understand totally what you mean that spirituality plays a role in mental health and overlaps with the use of psychedelics as well, but traditional therapy and other resources can deal with the bulk of it so that you're at least stable enough to function and seriously pursue spirituality.

If it's something you're passionate about, why not step into that role and offer your unique perspective that integrates spirituality when you see someone sharing about it here? There are also plenty of other teachers/online resources freely accessible, besides therapy, hotlines, and such. One simply has to take some responsibility for healing and look for it.

It's not wrong for someone to refer people to others who specialize in areas they're not specializing in, that's the responsible move.

I'm saying this even though I have suffered depression in the past and know what it's like. I know that spirituality (a.k.a the truth) is what ultimately helped me transcend it all/set me free, but the other tools/resources have also been extremely helpful in that journey.

Something to be acknowledged is that the system we have now is not optimal for mental health struggles and is awfully inaccessible to many, which is probably why you end up with a large audience with these struggles here.

Edited July 14, 2022 by puporing

[Gesundheit2]

9 hours ago, UNZARI said:

@Razard86 this entire take is just cringeworthy 

Could not agree more.

[bejapuskas]

I think it is fair for Leo to not focus on this, if he does not have the training. That is just preventing collateral damage, it is really easy to harm someone if you are not trained to help them and I mean that. 

I see that you guys have complaints here, which is totally understandable. How do you think we could make this forum a more inviting space for those with mental illnesses? 

In my opinion, some mental illnesses get demonized more than others here, what do you think? Do you see a similarity or a pattern there?

[Thought Art]

I don’t think it’s about demonizing but important to realize the dangers of doing deep spiritual work when mentally ill. Just knowing that, Leo is not hearing his words for you and that you should seek outside help before going off into deep terroritoy. The work is dangerous enough for stable minded people. 
 

He’s looking out for you because he loves you.

[Proserpina]

I think Leo clarified his statement by referencing dysfunctional vs functional.  Not all those diagnosed with a mental illness are dysfunctional.   There are many fully functional,  treated people with mental illness diagnoses. 

[Danioover9000]

@Mindful Bum

On 7/13/2022 at 4:42 AM, Mindful Bum said:

I just watched Leo's video, The Next Evolution Of Actualized.org Teachings, which includes a segment on mental illness. I've been consuming Leo's videos for several years now, and I've always appreciated his insights, but this segment was one of the rare occasions where his messaging kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like he reinforced the stigma around mental health and framed the whole thing in a way that was surprisingly naïve and narrow-minded. There are many implicit assumptions and very little nuance. Ironically, his intention to be more cautious was conveyed in a way that seems dismissive, apathetic, and woefully out of touch. 

I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Let's have a respectful conversation about it. You can click the link above to watch the segment (it's only a couple minutes), or you can read the transcript below. What parts stood out to you? What was your gut reaction?
 

 

 

   I'll write back after watching the video.

[Roy]

I came to this realization some time ago, I don't even watch the videos or am able to find the utility of this stuff anymore. My mental health has become so damaged it will likely be years before I'm even in the position to digest any Actualized or personal development stuff again. That is if I even survive that long.

[Mindful Bum]

It's a bit disappointing to see so many forum veterans lining up to defend Leo's position (i.e., that actualized.org isn't intended to treat mental illness), which wasn't even really called into question. My issue was with his messaging, which unnecessarily reinforces the stigma around mental illness and stereotypes the mentally ill as being dramatic and incompatible with spiritual pursuits--all without offering any real definition of mental illness.

Leo has created an imaginary category of other called the mentally ill, claimed he wants to help those people by adding disclaimers and cautionary warnings to his videos, and then threw those people under the bus with comments like "I wouldn't be friends with a mentally ill person."

I guess it's just me who thinks there's room for improvement there.

[Raptorsin7]

@Mindful Bum I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think Leo has the capability or compassion to help people with more conventional mental illness.

And most people here will just assume there's higher wisdom behind Leo's actions so don't expect too much

[Ezo]

Everyone that does any sort of psychedelics, especially at a young age or any age is prone to states of consciousness mental illness that being depression, or manic states even feeling as though you are going crazy. So it doesn't matter how stable you are. Sometimes the more stable you are or the condition you have been or the stronger your attachments to this dream, or the less open-minded you are can be even worse. And you should always return to homeostasis after some time may take weeks/months. If you haven't lost it at least once when doing psychedelics then you're not doing them properly you haven't pushed them far enough. You get insights into what it is like to have bipolar, schizophrenia, etc, and have more respect for people that suffer from these states. Remember these are only just states of consciousness. The big problem with the Actualized forum or mindscape is so obvious it draws a lot of young people in for very good reasons let's say Life Purpose, Career, Entrepreneurship, Finance Health, Fitness, Nutrition, Supplements, etc, and are good. Young people like to explore the forum and then they start looking at Spirituality, Consciousness, Awakening, Mysticism, Meditation, and God. And go what's this all about I am God wtf? and then they start looking into Psychedelics and they want to be just like Leo. Young people are impulsive and very impressionable easily led they do silly things and so it would seem so do older wiser people it's all part of growing. And then start taking Psychedelics at a very young age and that is where the problem lies, or should I say the problems begin especially when they start looking into solipsism or have a direct experience with it and it can unravel their reality. And at such a young age where they don't have anything to anchor or ground them and no life experience at all? A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and it's the journey they miss as well as the company and go straight to the destination without exploring anything. No one is immune to mental illness and of course, there is always room for improvement.

[Razard86]

On 7/13/2022 at 6:25 PM, Thought Art said:

@Razard86 My ADHD diagnosis and the help I received in elementary school saved my life. I really struggled for the first 4 years. But I got tutoring because I couldn't read at like grade 4. By grade 5 I had a grade 12 reading level. Did really good in Jr high (I won an award for most athletic academic student). I had ADHD, for sure.. but also genius level aptitudes. 

I am pretty sure I had/have ADHD. I had trouble focusing, could see sounds (I still can) and any little sound would distract me. I also struggled with emotional regulation more compared to other kids. Still do in some ways.

My ADHD, traumatic up bringing etc got in the way of my path a little bit. Some of the survival mechanisms... etc. But, Onward !

There are  professionals who study the brain and do not believe ADHD exists 

Here's a neurologist who doesn't believe it exists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1FUH6Ti528

Here's a psychologist who doesn't believe it exists. 

My parents told me when I was in school some School Officials tried to get a Professional to come to the school because they believed I had that

issue.

I had many of your symptoms. Never was officially diagnosed, never took drugs for it, as an adult I have discovered it is a natural stage that young boys go through it. 

Here is another Psychologist. 

Jordan Peterson: They don't really have a proper way to diagnose it. (My opinion because it doesn't exist). 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_zpi2hmI4

You don't have to agree...but why not question....how do I know if what I am being told is true?

 

[ZenAlex]

On 7/13/2022 at 11:53 PM, Mindful Bum said:

@Leo Gura I hear what you're saying, but you still haven't clearly defined mental illness. And for good reason: a clear definition doesn't exist.

For me it's quite simple. A mind that produces symptoms that significantly impacts a persons ability to function properly or achieve wellbeing, and the symptoms are not produced primarily by circumstance.

E.G. Anyone can have a mental breakdown due to stress caused by their job/relationship, but that's not mental illness. Mental illness would be having something like an anxiety disorder/clinical depression that will impact your functioning/causing you significant distress regardless of your circumstances.

A mentally ill mind will cause significant distress and impact functioning regardless of circumstance, and will likely require life long management. 

[ZenAlex]

@Razard86 The reality is something is considered a disorder if the symptoms impact functioning significantly.

If a person is struggling to function and complete everyday normal tasks because their brain makes it so they literally cannot pay attention for long periods of time, causes forgetfulness, rapid moodswings etc, then it could be considered a disorder

You could say disorders, mental or personality, don't exist, that is what we label them, and professionals label them disorders because of the disorder they cause in people's lives.

ADHD is genuine disorder, as it has symptoms that impact functioning to a significant degree, and it requires medication/lifestyle habit changes/dietary changes, and still then it will not completely go away, and will require management. 

Some professionals may disagree it exists, but many do. 

I know I have it. No matter how much I try, the symptoms don't completely go away. Attention to most things for long periods of time is impossible. I cannot stay in the present with one thing for very long, no matter how much I've tried. 

The symptoms are manageable, but some forms of work are impossible for me, and I have had to find jobs that cater to my symptoms.

You could just say "that's who you are, it's not a disorder"..

But it's a disorder because it causes disorder and distress in your life. 

It's like personality disorders are what we choose to label certain people's personalities, you could say they don't exist, that is just who people are, but if people have symptoms, traits etc that cause significant distress, disorder and impact on functioning to a significant degree, then that's when they are labeled disorders by many professionals.

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

There are  professionals who study the brain and do not believe ADHD exists

What about schizophrenia?

[Carl-Richard]

@Razard86 A lot of this boils down to, again, your style of communicating (which I've commented on before), which is to deconstruct concepts as a way to make a point, rather than keeping the concepts intact while establishing degrees of nuance.

Mental illness is something society labels you with when you fall outside certain behavioral expectations. Kids who have trouble paying attention in school can get slapped with the ADHD label. People who, in your framing, have trouble overcoming fears, can get slapped with the depressive or psychotic labels.

You can comment on whether these labels reflect something wrong with society (e.g. the school system), rather than the people, without abandoning mental illness as a concept. The concept exists, the diagnoses exist; the question is just about to which degree they're useful or not.

[something_else]

It would actually be dangerous for Leo to offer advice on mental health issues when it is not something he specialises in.

[ZenAlex]

33 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Razard86 A lot of this boils down to, again, your style of communicating (which I've commented on before), which is to deconstruct concepts as a way to make a point, rather than keeping the concepts intact while establishing degrees of nuance.

Mental illness is something society labels you with when you fall outside a certain expectation of how society prefers you to act. Kids who have trouble paying attention in school can get slapped with the ADHD label. People who, in your framing, have trouble overcoming fears, can get slapped with the depressive or psychotic labels.

You can comment on whether these labels reflect something wrong with society (e.g. the school system), rather than the people (kids), without abandoning mental illness as a concept. The concept exists, the diagnoses exist; the question is just about to which degree they're useful or not. ADHD might be an overall less useful diagnosis than say schizophrenia, but they both reflect an expectation of society on how you ought to act.

I don't think it's just about meeting behavioral expectations in general. It's also about being able to properly function and experiencing significant enough distress due to a set of symptoms.

 

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, ZenAlex said:

I don't think it's just about meeting behavioral expectations in general. It's also about being able to properly function and experiencing significant enough distress due to a set of symptoms.

It's a wide definition which works for this argument. Functionality and distress are behaviors. I said "a certain expectation", so not all behaviors.

 

[bejapuskas]

@Mindful Bum  I am sorry, I did not mean to defend Leo's position entirely, just the bit about him not trying to treat people with mental illnesses, because I actually consider that a good thing to do, that is if he just is not trained. I kinda have some mental illnesses myself, I am also queer, so like I often come into contact with people who just do not know how to respond to me. And that is just a sad reality. Of course, saying you would never be friends with somebody seems like he maybe does not really have an idea of what it means, I am not trying to defend that. Just saying, if you are seeking help, spend yourself the potential pain and trauma and seek it in resources where people are trained. Teach yourself to seek help from people who actually understand your situation, and that does not even have to be professionals, as some of them also suck. I am just saying, build boundaries around who you open up to - that sometimes means your favorite teacher is gonna keep hruting you and you might have to drop them. 

I am not trying to defend offences against people with mental illnesses, those really are unexcusable, everyone can read up about how not to hurt others, that should be common decency. I am just saying it is not everybody's responsibility to help everybody, we are limited humans, we need to have different of focus. Even if Leo says his content is holistic, and encompasses everything, which I don't think he entirely does, he possibly cannot.

Of course he can make his videos more friendly to oppressed groups and he should, it just better to do that, but that does not mean he has to offer treatment etc., especially if he does not have training or interest to do that.