Leo and the Mentally Ill

[Mindful Bum]

I just watched Leo's video, The Next Evolution Of Actualized.org Teachings, which includes a segment on mental illness. I've been consuming Leo's videos for several years now, and I've always appreciated his insights, but this segment was one of the rare occasions where his messaging kinda rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like he reinforced the stigma around mental health and framed the whole thing in a way that was surprisingly naïve and narrow-minded. There are many implicit assumptions and very little nuance. Ironically, his intention to be more cautious was conveyed in a way that seems dismissive, apathetic, and woefully out of touch. 

I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Let's have a respectful conversation about it. You can click the link above to watch the segment (it's only a couple minutes), or you can read the transcript below. What parts stood out to you? What was your gut reaction?
 

Quote

I want to be more cautious and issue more disclaimers for the mentally ill. One of the things that I discovered in this work over the last, let's say, three or four years, is just how prevalent mental illness is. Honestly, it's pretty shocking. I didn't realize when I began this work how many mentally ill people are into self help and spirituality. They're attracted to it like moths to a flame. I didn't realize how much of my audience suffered from mental illness. 

Now honestly, because I've never suffered from mental illness, so to me, this was not really an area of interest. I haven't studied it very much, until recently, and so I just assumed it was something rare and I didn't have to deal with it. But now I understand that like probably 20% of my audience has some kind of mental illness and they're in deep suffering and they have a lot of trauma. And this sort of psychotherapeutic stuff, which is really not my forte, it's not really what my teachings are about, but I have to be cognizant of that, I have to adjust my teachings for such people and issue the right disclaimers, otherwise these people can easily abuse these teachings and take them the wrong way. And so, you know, that's something I had to learn just through kinda trial and error. 

Again, in a certain sense, I was assuming the best about you guys. I was assuming the best about my audience, which was sorta that the majority of you are not mentally ill. Which is true; the majority of you are not mentally ill, but I was assuming that like 98% of you are not mentally ill. But actually, like maybe only 80% of you are not mentally ill. The rest of you are. 

And look, I'm not judging you. Like I totally understand how difficult that is. I feel very grateful that I don't suffer from mental illness and I don't have a lot of deep trauma in my life. Some of you have gone through horrible life situations, childhoods, you know, have been abused in various ways or traumatized--I totally understand that that's valid and that needs to be treated seriously. But also, you should understand that that is not the focus of my work. There are other teachers and therapists and techniques and methods that you can find out there that can help you more with that. That's not my forte. That's not my wheel house. Even though I can have some profound insights for you on those topics. It's just not really something that I'm very passionate about, and the reason is because I just don't have a lot of experience with that. 

I've not been around a lot of mentally ill people in my life. In general, I don't tolerate them very well, like in my own personal life. Like I wouldn't be friends with a mentally ill person. No offense to those of you who have it; it's just that I have very high standards for the kind of drama that I'm willing to tolerate in my life. I don't allow drama, because that drama distracts me from doing the work that I need to do. And one of the biggest problems with this mental illness and this trauma that you have is that it makes your life so chaotic and so dramatic. You're always in some kind of drama. You're in these whirlwinds of drama that you can't really self-actualize properly, you can't do the work. You can't do the spiritual work. Because you're, you know, you're always like in some new storm of drama. And I totally understand that that's where you're at, but also, like to do the kind of high-level work that I do, I can't allow that in my life. So I don't allow that near me, and as a result, I don't have a lot of experience dealing with that. 

Now, I totally appreciate other people, teachers and therapists who specifically actually work with that and they want that near them, like they want to work with mentally ill people and people who are in deep suffering and trauma. That's great. That's a very noble, very very incredible life purpose to have: to help those kind of people heal, but don't expect too much of that from me. Like I'm getting better at that, but again that's not my forte and that's not my specialty, because I'm thinking about much higher stuff than that.

 

 

[Proserpina]

I was kinda surprised when he said he wouldn't be friends with someone who is mentally ill.  One of the most conscious people I know had schizophrenia. No drama, only generosity, love and kindness. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Proserpina

[Mindful Bum]

1 minute ago, Mindful Bum said:

I've not been around a lot of mentally ill people in my life. In general, I don't tolerate them very well, like in my own personal life. Like I wouldn't be friends with a mentally ill person. No offense to those of you who have it; it's just that I have very high standards for the kind of drama that I'm willing to tolerate in my life. I don't allow drama, because that drama distracts me from doing the work that I need to do. And one of the biggest problems with this mental illness and this trauma that you have is that it makes your life so chaotic and so dramatic. You're always in some kind of drama. You're in these whirlwinds of drama that you can't really self-actualize properly, you can't do the work. You can't do the spiritual work. Because you're, you know, you're always like in some new storm of drama. And I totally understand that that's where you're at, but also, like to do the kind of high-level work that I do, I can't allow that in my life. So I don't allow that near me, and as a result, I don't have a lot of experience dealing with that. 

This part in particular made me recoil. It assumes "a mentally ill person" is clearly definable and recognizable. It stereotypes these people as inherently dramatic, and it pretty clearly states that this drama is incompatible with spiritual pursuits. Most people with mental health issues have a fear of burdening their loved ones, so they isolate and their condition worsens. This quote unapologetically validates that fear by portraying the mentally ill as people to avoid. My heart breaks for anyone suffering from mental illness who actually watches this video segment. I understand the point Leo is trying to make (the road to enlightenment is not paved with interpersonal conflict), but this is a shockingly insensitive way of saying it. 

[Tyler Robinson]

Lot of demonizing I know. 

That was sad. But also one must see the limits of everything. You can't expect generosity in this world. 

What you get is what you get. I wish there was a mentally ill parade for 2 months like the gay pride month parades. 

Where is the pride and dignity of mentally ill people and their rights? 

 

 

[Thought Art]

@Mindful Bum Look, the way I took it (I don’t consider myself necessarily mentally ill but traumatized… but still felt the message nonetheless…) 

 

I took it like this. As Leo’s relationship to us as a teacher he is explaining the scope of his work. People should be aware of the limits of the focus of actualized.org. So, perhaps from Leo’s perspective he is focused on helping people reach the highest levels of development humanly possible. Yet, many of the symptoms of mental illness are tricky, complex, nuanced and really to be addressed require people with specific training. But, clearly from this part of the video and Leo’s work in general that’s not his skills or focus. 
 

It’s important that he says these thing maybe, even if it’s harsh or cold. I was able to listen to it as someone with trauma and relate as I have had times of drama and whirlwind in the past. I would have to be selfish to put people through that in a sense. I think it’s actually an intelligent move to avoid people with mental illness if you are building a powerful and stable life. That isn’t to stigmatize people with mental illness in society but protect yourself, time, energy and mental space to fully actualize your potential.

In some way, if you have mental illness… you have to recognize that for people who don’t have it… they may not want to spend time with someone who is unpredictable, dramatic, delusional, easily triggered or however their illness is symptomatic of. That’s just a harsh truth. If someone like Leo is stable minded and is pursing the best life possible… he’s gonna cut you out as he doesn’t have interest in that. He may have friend who have mental illness that he doesn’t even know they suffer from me suffer from I’m the past. But, he focuses on quality relationships.
 

It’s also an important message because it may push you away from actualized and pursue people with more specialized training. Actualized may attract many people who are not ready for these videos and it may do more harm than good if they aren’t given a push to realize the limits of Leo and actualized. It’s not truly meant to be a mental health clinic or therapist. It’s a deeply scoped life coaching channel, he doesn’t know any of his students. 
 

Leo did a lot of self reflecting on his flaws, how his words and actions affect others, the areas he wants to improve on etc. People with mental illness watching him should have the capacity and awareness to do the same. But, honestly many may not. 
 

There’s a much bigger world outside of actualized.org full of rich, deep and powerful resources for the mentally ill. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Thought Art

[gettoefl]

you like who you're like ... likewise in life you'll try to help those who you understand which is those like you ... don't spread yourself thinly, you are not for everyone, do what you know, pick what you know, love what you know

[Loba]

I have a mental illness.  I saw that part and thought it was harsh, but I stay away from people for the most part anyways in order to avoid drama, so I was just thinking to myself, "Already got you covered."  And I kind of don't really give a crap about what Leo says or does in his life, I like his videos but as far as stuff like this goes it's just background noise.  People have a right to choose who they want to hang around and if he doesn't feel comfortable around mentally ill people, it's not the end of the world.  Whatever.

To be fair, I don't like arrogant people and probably wouldn't chill with Leo so it goes both ways.

[Leo Gura]

Dealing with and teaching mentally ill people is a special skill set and interest which I do not have and am not particularly interested in.

I make a basic distinction between dysfunction vs functional people. Actualized.org teachings are aimed at taking functional people and moving them up into super-functional and transhuman domains. Dysfunctional people need a lot of remedial work which I do not offer. That is the domain of therapy, and I am not a therapist nor do I want to be.

I've dealt with a few mentally ill/dysfunctional people in my life (like Conor Murphy), and the drama they create is unreal. Sorry, nothing against you personally, but that's not something I allow in my life because it is a massive distraction and my work is not geared for such people. You can attempt to fit the work to your situation, and of course many insights will carry over, but I don't make any warranties that it will work well. The reality is that psychologically abnormal and dysfunctional people require specialized treatment which I do not offer.

When you have an unique illness you need to go to the right specialist. I am not going to spread myself thin by trying to accommodate everyone on the planet. Nothing personal. There are things I am good at and things I am not good at. Handling mentally ill people is not my forte.

[Razard86]

Mental Illness is conditioning nothing more. Outside of actual brain disorders which obviously are an issue majority of mental disorders are conditioning which is just lies your society tells you to make you feel like something is wrong.

Perfect examples are ADHD, there is way too much information that this is not a real condition but a natural process seen in young boys. Then you have people who suffer with issues later on with attention, this is due to overstimulation from technology. I could go on and on. They create new mental or personality disorders almost every decade and they also reclassify old ones with what they call continuing education. Its all illusion.

Not with that said I do have empathy for those who suffer these conditions but I take more issue with society increasingly creating these condition. Mental illness is creation of modern society, an issue primitive cultures don't have problems with. 

Note: Don't try to say well primitive cultures had these issues it just wasn't understood. Current psychologists have traveled and studied primitive cultures and have found these issues mostly non-existent. As I always say, environment produces results...and when I say environment I mean the internal environment. Go watch Leo's video on Ketamine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EokHiVt0KeU&t=84s

Back in April when I went through a Kundalini Awakening I experienced visions and because they frightened me I called 911 and got myself admitted. I was diagnosed as experiencing psychosis. I overcame my "psychosis" by accepting the visions. So psychosis isn't a disorder, it is just resistance to what you are experiencing. 

Afterward I would experience some what is called "Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD)" I overcame that as well by again accepting what is. HPPD is caused by fear, deep-rooted fear. Once you choose to accept what is... IT STOPS. The moment I did it, it stopped and the problem never came back....because all problems are just resistance.

So what I realize through all of this is, is all we do is reinforce people's resistance and teach them to be victims. We medicate them, and keep telling them they are victims and they will never be able to overcome any of their fears.  

All this was from my direct experience. 

[ShardMare]

I think there are more than 20% viewers that are ill. But ofc maybe its just projection. 

For me it seems weird because what psychologists and psychiatrists do is so much little. Yes i havent visited a lot of them. Imo the techniques they offer are not the most efficient. 

I think Leos content made me so much aware and just how my mind works. 

 

[BuddhistLover]

I have mental illness, severe bipolar. Some days I'm super manic, and strike forth to become a millionaire and the greatest musician who ever lived. Other days I just want to lay in bed till 2pm and play games. The bipolar wanes in and out. 

[musicalwatch]

I am probably on Autistic spectrum- my brother is and my nephew too on my father's side. I haven't diagnosed it yet and I don't want to. Yet, his comment jabbed me a little and inspired me to get better.
I have a suspicion that mental illnesses don't even exist. Just fools. Don't want to say that out loud/

[musicalwatch]

5 minutes ago, BuddhistLover said:

I have mental illness, severe bipolar. Some days I'm super manic, and strike forth to become a millionaire and the greatest musician who ever lived. Other days I just want to lay in bed till 2pm and play games. The bipolar wanes in and out. 

Hell yeah. That's exactly me. You look like the guy I know, Ben

[Matt23]

2 minutes ago, musicalwatch said:

I have a suspicion that mental illnesses don't even exist.

This points to how the term "mental illness" comes loaded with lots of assumptions about what is actually happening in the person, which could be inaccurate.  I think that the concept or perspective of mental illness is flawed quite a bit, though it has been an improvement from the labels and ideas about what was happening prior to psychotherapy.  Things like seeing and calling people just "crazy" or "demons" or "witches" n' stuff.  Though, in some cultures (I think in some Islamic ones), they treat people with mental illnesses (severe ones) as "closer to God" and view them with reverence.  

John Verveake has a great series on his channel called something like "Psychology and Pathology" where him, Gregg Henriques, and another guy discuss the ontological, philosophical, and psychological aspects of mental illnesses and the issues that can come from how we label and thus perceive these issues.  

First video of the series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-eHKAIi1cE&list=PLND1JCRq8Vui0kp13pMiOCFoC-Vl0yk84

 

Another interesting perspective John Vervaeke advocates is how labelling addictions as mental illness is really inaccurate and not well-suited for the job.  He prefers the idea that addictions are like negative feedback loops which arise from a person believing, thus perceiving and experiencing, their options in the world as diminished, which then causes pain, which leads to consumption of addictions, which in turn reduce one's ability to have a larger perspective, which in turn leads to not seeing all the options, which leads to more pain, addictions, lesser perspective, and so on.  

[BuddhistLover]

@musicalwatch Yeah pal, doing music is like therapy, it's not about excitement, I do music for therapeutic reasons. 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Mental illness is creation of modern society, an issue primitive cultures don't have problems with. 

49:43 - 58:20

 

[Gesundheit2]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I've dealt with a few mentally ill/dysfunctional people in my life (like Conor Murphy), and the drama they create is unreal. Sorry, nothing against you personally, but that's not something I allow in my life because it is a massive distraction

I would say that you might be looking at self-actualization and personal development rather in a narrow/limited way. Notice your aversion to drama. That's not what you ultimately want, because it creates a shadow. I think you can learn something from integrating more drama into your life, but without being a victim of it or sucked into it unconsciously. In other words, let there be some drama in your life, but don't react to it in a similar way, don't reciprocate. Rather, act from the highest consciousness place that you can, and see how that might reflect on your life. At the very least, it will increase your compassion and help you distinguish the real from the fake drama in the long run.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[UNZARI]

@Razard86 this entire take is just cringeworthy 

[Thought Art]

@Razard86 My ADHD diagnosis and the help I received in elementary school saved my life. I really struggled for the first 4 years. But I got tutoring because I couldn't read at like grade 4. By grade 5 I had a grade 12 reading level. Did really good in Jr high (I won an award for most athletic academic student). I had ADHD, for sure.. but also genius level aptitudes. 

I am pretty sure I had/have ADHD. I had trouble focusing, could see sounds (I still can) and any little sound would distract me. I also struggled with emotional regulation more compared to other kids. Still do in some ways.

My ADHD, traumatic up bringing etc got in the way of my path a little bit. Some of the survival mechanisms... etc. But, Onward !

Edited July 13, 2022 by Thought Art

[Mindful Bum]

@Leo Gura I hear what you're saying, but you still haven't clearly defined mental illness. And for good reason: a clear definition doesn't exist. The mental health field has taken the infinite possibilities of the human mind and behavior, and forced everyone into finite categories that are vaguely defined and usually dependent on self-reporting. Complicating the issue further is the reality that many mental health disorders are defined and diagnosed primarily as a convenience for medical insurance and billing purposes.

For many people, their first mental health diagnosis comes from a mental health professional that their parents force them to visit and who is financially incentivized to make a diagnosis, prescribe medications, etc., often after a single visit. These kids are given diagnoses/labels that more often than not create limiting beliefs about themselves. These labels follow them through life, shaping their perception and future, despite the fact that the diagnosis was formed from a single disinterested person's interpretation of the patient's responses to a handful of contrived questions. 

Mental health (and therefore mental illness) is just as infinite and undefinable as consciousness. And the two are intrinsically linked, just like personal development and spirituality. In actuality, there are no hard boundaries between these domains. So when you talk about "the mentally ill" as if it's a real and meaningful category of people, you come across as ignorant. Because if you had even a basic understanding of modern mental healthcare, you wouldn't be wielding such a loaded term so carelessly. 

The thing is...I know you DO have the necessary knowledge and critical thinking skills necessary to deconstruct "mental illness." I've thoroughly enjoyed the many hours of video content you've published on deconstructing the myth of science. You even specifically mention the limits of modern medicine in this clip from Assumption Is The Mother Of All Fuck-ups. So from my perspective, you are uniquely qualified to help this huge demographic that suffers from mental health disorders--for example, by revealing how most diagnoses are highly subjective inventions of for-profit organizations--but instead, you seem to have accepted uncritically the idea that there are only two kinds of people in this world: those who are mentally ill (/dramatic/dysfunctional) and those who are not...and the former should be ignored? 

I understand that actualized.org isn't geared toward people suffering from extreme forms of mental illness, nor is it the best resource for helping such people. I'm not suggesting otherwise. What I am suggesting is that you investigate your seemingly rigid beliefs about "the mentally ill" and learn about psychology/neurobiology at least to a point where you recognize we're all on the same spectrum; no fundamental difference exists. 

This demographic (i.e., those with mental health issues) is MUCH bigger than you think, and your teachings have a much greater healing potential than you think. The effectiveness of psychedelics, meditation, and mystical experiences as treatments for mental illness has shown to be far superior to psychotherapy and/or medication.

This IS your wheelhouse, Leo.