How do you debunk a blackpiller?

[something_else]

51 minutes ago, CultivateLove said:

Reasoning a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into is usually next to impossible.

I really like this phrasing, nicely said 

[Ulax]

To my mind, rational argument isn't likely to work. The identification with the blackpill movement will be fulfilling some of their needs, albeit in an unhealthy manner. So, I reckon you would need to make it so that he would believe that he wouldn't be losing out of meeting those needs.

For example, identifying with the blackpill movement might fulfil a need to belong that your friend has. Therefore, no matter your argument, if you didn't offer an alternative means of fulfilling that need to belong you wouldn''t be likely to get very far.

[mr_engineer]

I know how you do it for yourself. 

• You get rid of all preconceived notions. (Not assuming that the blackpill is a preconceived notion or objective reality as of yet) 
• You work on yourself, you discover yourself and what you have to offer to women in relationships. 
• You understand women and how they receive it. 
• You figure out compatibility. 
• Then you make the transaction work with them. It'll be in an emotional language cuz that's feminine epistemology, or a feminine definition of 'fact'. In terms of feelings and emotions, not 3D data. 

Once you've done all of that, there will be a part of you that wants revenge from women. Cuz all your life you've felt powerless to women and now that you have something to offer to women, you have the power to not give them what they want! 

This is where it becomes important for you to define your morality in the way you deal with women and this is where your blackpill can really block your throat. Up until this point, it can just be there in the background, where you don't take it seriously. But now, once you're ready for relationship, a blackpilled ideology will lead to misogyny. This is where we get to the issue of 'immaturity' as Leo calls it. If you have immature ideas about what women do in the world, your morality for dealing with it will be set accordingly. And, if you're not careful, you can morally justify doing all kinds of evil to women. Even mass-shootings! 

You can only debunk a blackpiller who's done all of this work and who's reached this point. In fact, it's only here that there's any real point to debunking them! Before that, they'll resist you. 

I think that it is a gross misunderstanding to dismiss them as guys who are lazy and holding onto victim-mentality to justify it. You really don't know whether the blackpill is true or false up until you reach this point. Many PUAs don't want to even consider it with an open mind. This is the whole reason that blackpillers are that resistant to being debunked! Cuz most debunkers assume that they're just immature and lazy and don't want to take any responsibility. Which is flat-out wrong. 

Edited July 13, 2022 by mr_engineer

[Phil777]

@mr_engineer 

Quote

I think that it is a gross misunderstanding to dismiss them as guys who are lazy and holding onto victim-mentality to justify it. You really don't know whether the blackpill is true or false up until you reach this point. Many PUAs don't want to even consider it with an open mind. This is the whole reason that blackpillers are that resistant to being debunked! Cuz most debunkers assume that they're just immature and lazy and don't want to take any responsibility. Which is flat-out wrong. 

Thanks for acknowledging that the black pill position needs to be evaluated properly. If we are going to question whether or not other conscious entities exist outside our experience, we can also entertain the black pill. As I said above, there is some truth to the black pill and my prior points haven't been addressed and proven wrong so far. I want to have an open mind and disprove the black pill for myself but the position is honestly very strong if put into a proper context with nuance.

I should try and wipe the slate clean and assume that women would give me the same chance as they would someone like Henry Cavill. Just go into a conversation or interaction with the mindset of "I look like him" and can feel as confident because looks don't matter so Henry or me - no difference
Notice that that's a different argument than "I am going to learn game and become a PUA and get women despite my looks because I am such a gamey, charismatic mf". This is what 99 percent of black pill critics recommend. The argument is basically: "black pill? yes but game is more important". So there are pillars of attraction you can invest into to up your SMV and you can compensate with one for the other. This position also acknowledges that the black pill - women prefer better-looking guys linearly on a spectrum according to fairly objective and scientific standards of facial development, can still be true.

Leo's approach of "approach 100s and 100s of women and get maybe one lay" seems ridiculous to me. Again, think of Cavill and ask yourself if that would happen. I would predict that 99,9 percent of women would go and bone him no questions asked, no words spoken, just because he looks like a greek god (and is a rich celebrity). This doesn't debunk game but puts it in its place. Also, to the men: how much do you care about looks? That's right, women are a lot more like us in that regard than you think.

That's the danger of science and logic, it's too damn convincing and can't be brushed off like a religious dogma, cause it's reproducable and based on "facts". Yes, for the purposes of making decisions and evaluations, those are practically facts in the same way the laws of physics and it's theories are factual enough to build a freaking nuclear power plant. Not all facts or assessments of reality are created equal. Evolutionary psychology teaches us that we select for best genetics and attributes of fitness (in the evolutionary sense) and craniofacial development is one major component of fitness and health - and that is linearly correlated with facial aesthetics. Is this an absolute fact? No. Practically a fact? yes.

Alright, I am done here.

[Gesundheit2]

Black-pill is true, not only in dating, but everywhere in life. That's just the way it is, e.g. one's genetics determine most of their life potential.

However, it's not the full picture, since it misses on very important truths, like mindset and effort in the right place at the right time (Red-pill).

People who identify with the Black-pill often have victim's mentality and a lot of defeatism in their minds. They don't (want to) know that there's a lot of room form improvement, so they just stay stuck where they are.

[mr_engineer]

@Phil777 What if Henry Cavill has anger-issues and he's unable to control his anger? 

Women value different things in relationships than men. A lot of the blackpill is a projection. Which the rest of the world correctly points out. And this is the whole critique of the people pushing it. 

The thing is that except for blackpillers, most people don't really care whether the blackpill is true or not. They'll believe whatever goes with their agenda to get what they want. Most people don't care about the truth, period. Relationships are a game of survival. So, if you care about the truth, it is kinda understandable, to struggle with the blackpill-question. Even though most people here will see it as a laughably low level of consciousness, it is a thing and my aim is to make sense of it. 

My point is that you cannot even fairly get to the point of testing whether it's true or not, until you get ready for a relationship yourself. This is the whole issue with blackpillers. Some of them, especially those pushing it, have given up and they're using it as an excuse for their laziness and victim-mentality. This is their intellectual dishonesty! And this discourages others who have some degree of hope. So, there is a point to having this discussion, opening your mind to it and potentially debunking them. 

Cuz here's the thing - you don't have to be a virgin to be a blackpiller. You may have gotten laid in the past and if you're blackpilled, you will find a way to rationalize those away as 'exceptions'. So, I don't see getting laid as the solution to this problem. You just have to open your mind to it being true and put in the work to test it out. 

[something_else]

 

39 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

I would predict that 99,9 percent of women would go and bone him no questions asked, no words spoken, just because he looks like a greek god (and is a rich celebrity). This doesn't debunk game but puts it in its place.

I was actually surprised how often I've greek god looking guys get rejected in clubs. I can think of three particular instances where I've watched tall, jacked, handsome dudes walking around from girl to girl in clubs being rejected over and over.

They did eventually find girls, and no doubt their looks played a part, but they were conventionally extremely attractive yet still faced much more rejection than I expected they would

Quote

Also, to the men: how much do you care about looks? That's right, women are a lot more like us in that regard than you think.

If all women selected for looks as strongly as men, we would have all died out thousands of years ago. I rememeber a good Leo quote: "Women don't want looks, women want a man"

Which is not to say women don't care about looks at all, but they don't only care about looks as much as men do.

[Phil777]

@mr_engineer Laughably low level of consciousness? Really? Come on man.

Why do want to debunk anything? It's about integration and holistic understanding. I have gotten laid and was in long-term relationships numerous times before. It's all in congruence with the black pill thus far. Not because they were exceptions but on par with my looks. And the one girl that wasn't, cheated on me.

[Phil777]

@something_else Thanks for sharing

[mr_engineer]

2 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

@mr_engineer Laughably low level of consciousness? Really? Come on man.

That is what this forum thinks, yes. This thread is going to get locked pretty shortly if someone posts any incel content here that's 'up for debate', I can guarantee that. 

3 minutes ago, Phil777 said:

Why do want to debunk anything? It's about integration and holistic understanding. I have gotten laid and was in long-term relationships numerous times before. It's all in congruence with the black pill thus far. Not because they were exceptions but on par with my looks. And the one girl that wasn't, cheated on me.

If you're happy with your dating-life, that's fine. Then you don't need to debunk it. If you happen to be very good-looking and you like the blackpill cuz it boosts your ego, more power to you!! 

The problem comes when people who are unhappy with their dating-lives use this ideology to justify their limiting-beliefs in their own dating-lives. And, this is a self-help forum. Therefore, the focus will be on debunking it from that angle. 

[Phil777]

@Gesundheit2 Your looks are in fact not mostly determined by your genetics in terms of attractiveness. Facial attractiveness is most important. Your genetics determine your unique features like skin, eye and hair colour as well as small details. But when it comes to the growth of the face, your tongue posture and myofunctional health determine the craniofacial development most. Height may be more of a genetic factor (I don't know and have to look that up).

Addition: In the future, I'll try to compile my knowledge and make a post in the health section of the forum on proper tongue posture as well as myofunctional and craniofacial health. Besides improved looks, it also increases your oxygen intake, nasal breathing capacity (how easy it is to do it), and improves your whole body posture and especially your neck posture. It improves sleep, get's rid of snoring and can even heal sleep-disordered breathing (like it did for me).

Edited July 14, 2022 by Phil777

[Phil777]

@mr_engineer Leo made a new commitment to allow for dissenting opinions. Let's see how he holds up.

The focus should simply be on truth. How anyone copes with it, is second order. No one is making any brash and one-dimensional claims about looks. My position is very holistic, context-dependent and nuanced. If that isn't possible to express here, we have a problem and then the accusation of cultish behaviour is justified.

[Globalcollective]

19 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The only way i think would work is to have him go out with a guy that has whatever thing the blackpiller is insecure about, and watch the guy do good with girls.

For example i was kinda blackpilled about my height (im 5 7) and i went out for a daygame sesson with an experienced daygamer who was 5 6. After seeing him absolutely kill it even with girls taller than him, my height insecurity was reduced in a way that no self-help method could ever do. It did wonders for me watching him.

Yeah this ^ is would be a good way to do it. 

Also why can't people just answer the mans question instead of going crazy deep on him my days ahah. Black pill is a super toxic mindset so nothing wrong with wanting to help people break out of it. 

The answer to fixing problems with women was already solved when PUA/game was invented but it got toxic and was full of bad marketing and immature behaviour. Game is very hard to learn and most guys don't have the will or tenacity to deal with rejection so quit. I use to be involved with the community way back when it started and have seen guys below a 4 pull 8s 9s constantly. How did they do it? they worked there asses off with no excuses or victim mentality. I myself am actually average to above average in looks so couldn't be a good black pill debunker but some of these uglier guys would put me to shame.  

Edited July 13, 2022 by Globalcollective

[Phil777]

@Globalcollective Thanks for sharing

[Gesundheit2]

9 hours ago, Phil777 said:

@Gesundheit2 Your looks are not mostly determined by your genetics in terms of attractiveness. Facial attractiveness is most important. Your genetics determine your unique features like skin, eye and hair colour as well as small details. But when it comes to the growth of the face, your tongue posture and myofunctional health determine the craniofacial development most. Height may be more of a genetic factor (I don't know and have to look that up).

Addition: In the future, I'll try to compile my knowledge and make a post in the health section of the forum on proper tongue posture as well as myofunctional and craniofacial health. Besides improved looks, it also increases your oxygen intake, nasal breathing capacity (how easy it is to do it), and improves your whole body posture and especially your neck posture. It improves sleep, get's rid of snoring and can even heal sleep-disordered breathing (like it did for me).

Sounds super cool! Looking forward to it!

[Mada_]

Because they refuse to see that what they're complaining about can be changed, developed, accepted etc. Which makes their perspective fundamentally false. 

"I'm ugly..." - "go to the gym, get contacts, get  haircut"

"I have low self esteem" - "read a book on self esteem"

"Girls don't like Asian guys" - "rsd Tyler is a balding ginger and gets laid"