Do Psychedelics Make Me More Conscious?

[Jodistrict]

These commenters always focus on “enlightenment” and thus never talk about whether “psychedelics” can assist in healing.  When we focus with a flashlight, we only see what is in the small circle of light and miss what is outside of it.  In the shamanic path, they are medicines to heal the mind and body.  And if you are being liberated from the traumas of the past, how can that not directly affect your state of consciousness?   

[UnbornTao]

On 7/11/2022 at 8:59 PM, Jodistrict said:

These commenters always focus on “enlightenment” and thus never talk about whether “psychedelics” can assist in healing.  When we focus with a flashlight, we only see what is in the small circle of light and miss what is outside of it.  In the shamanic path, they are medicines to heal the mind and body.  And if you are being liberated from the traumas of the past, how can that not directly affect your state of consciousness?   

You're conflating enlightenment with healing. Those are different pursuits, with different focus and results.

Psychedelics can assist healing and, indirectly, enlightenment work too. But they'll never lead to nor cause it.

Edited November 8, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Salvijus]

I bet ralston not only dismisses psychedelics but dismisses all other paths that lead to enlightenment like yoga, bhakti, purification of the mind, kundalini etc.

If i had to guess i would say he's just playing coy. That's what they all do. Dismiss everything else and say my path is the best. Justifyable behavior tho with certain wisdom behind it i think.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Salvijus

[UnbornTao]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

But, you as a conscious being can increase your ability to be more and more aware, of conscious of God, Reality, Truth and many finite relative aspects of reality. 

 

You can become more conscious of things than others through spiritual practices. A human may be conscious but lives very unconsciously. 
 

The homeless drug addict or the man full of hate is less conscious than the sage or prophet. 
 

David R. Hawkins has a neato map of the levels of consciousness and… even if it’s not perfect… psychedelics do in fact reveal the higher states and pull you out of the lower ones. 

Becoming aware and becoming conscious are distinct.

Historically, there have been enlightened warriors who killed people.

What is that model referring to? Hawkins assigns an emotion to a level of consciousness. Nice cosmology.

Awakening is independent of relative things -- emotions, in this case.

Edited July 12, 2022 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:33 PM, Salvijus said:

I bet ralston not only dismisses psychedelics but dismisses all other paths that lead to enlightenment like yoga, bhakti, purification of the mind, kundalini etc.

If i had to guess i would say he's just playing coy. That's what they all do. Dismiss everything else and say my path is the best. Justifyable behavior tho with certain wisdom behind it i think.

Enlightenment isn't the result of a process. It happens now, suddenly. Contemplation is the most direct method. But it isn't thought of as the activity that produces it. Because there is none.

Spiritual practices help us focus our attention and relax, deepening one's ability to contemplate. Such practices are useful in that regard.

Edited November 8, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Batman]

43 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

These commenters always focus on “enlightenment” and thus never talk about whether “psychedelics” can assist in healing.  When we focus with a flashlight, we only see what is in the small circle of light and miss what is outside of it.  In the shamanic path, they are medicines to heal the mind and body.  And if you are being liberated from the traumas of the past, how can that not directly affect your state of consciousness?   

Because enlightenment is not about changing states or transforming the mind. 

This is not to say that healing/transformation and enlightenment are mutually exclusive. Usually when serious transformation takes place we drop aspects of our self that isn't us, which may reveal that much of what we take our self to be - isn't really who we are. So of course, if we can heal or transform the body and the mind, it can only mean that those are temporary and not us. However, this alone will not "produce" enlightenment. 

[Salvijus]

@UnbornTao okey, okey, Gosh...

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

You're conflating enlightenment with healing. These are different pursuits with different results.

From my understanding, what I hear from Brendan's stance is that psychedelics can certainly assist healing work, and enlightenment. They don't lead to the latter, though. They open up your mind and perhaps make you curious, empowering your contemplations.

Separating them is a conceptual convenience.  There is one mind and there are paths to purification and liberation. 

[UnbornTao]

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Separating them is a conceptual convenience.  There is one mind and there are paths to purification and liberation. 

Enlightenment is about the truth. Healing is about well-being. Different paths with overlapping aspects that can complement each other. I didn't imply that they're mutually exclusive.

Can you clarify what you meant by the second sentence?

Edited July 12, 2022 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 7/12/2022 at 0:25 AM, JoeVolcano said:

@UnbornTao So-called healing is directly related to your state of consciousness, which is directly related to your clarity and contemplation.

No amount of contemplation will ever lead to enlightenment for someone who is full of trauma.

Trauma is basically just a subset of conditioning and false beliefs that we hold, and they are particularly emotionally charged, which is what clouds and contracts your state of consciousness.

Cheers

Maharshi died of cancer.

What you are is independent of your self.

Thinking that the relative can produce enlightenment is like thinking that drinking coffee within a dream can wake you up.

Edited November 8, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

You guys make up so much nonsense.

Sigh...

[AtheisticNonduality]

On 7/10/2022 at 8:03 PM, UnbornTao said:

Lol not Sasha Grey. What was that guy called? 

What was I thinking? ?

Shulgin.

[AtheisticNonduality]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys make up so much nonsense.

Sigh...

That's why you need the book. So all of your stances on these different topics are written down in a single place.

[Leo Gura]

None of these nondual teachers are teaching God-Realization.

Enlightenment is NOT it. You are imagining enlightenment and nonduality to keep yourself from realizing that you are God. It's a total illusion.

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Alright alright. Give me the pipe daddy. hehe

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Becoming aware and becoming conscious are distinct.

Historically, there have been enlightened warriors who killed people.

What is that model referring to? Hawkins assigns an emotion to a level of consciousness. Nice cosmology.

Awakening is independent of relative things -- emotions, in this case.

Becoming aware and becoming conscious are adjacent, correlated and related to one another. They can also be used interchangeably depending on context. I could say “choose to live consciously” “that was a conscious decision” “when I’m angry I make unconscious decisions” “when I am full of pride I make unconscious decisions”. Or “when I became conscious of God” even though I was God the whole time just as a materialist.

Also, there is a difference between pure consciousness, pure awareness and of course when we say being more aware or more conscious. A donkey isn’t that aware. A flower and a sheep have different qualities Of awareness. 

Historically, survival needs have been different. Enlightenment can say little about how to act in life. It doesn’t mean you won’t kill people. Human development has many lines. There are also degrees of enlightenment/ awakening and these people likely weren’t God Realized psychonauts. An enlightened person could kill, or do anything I guess. Enlightenment also isn’t the only measurement of ones development. I like the 4 quadrant model of: Awakening, Growing up, cleaning up, showing up by Ken Wilbur.
 

The Hawkins degrees of consciousness is a finite model and only one example of infinite models you could create. It’s more than an saying each level is an emotion, but a state relative to human existence and psychology and way of interacting with, seeing and being in the world. The highest states of consciousness discussed by him work well with the highest states experience in psychedelics. I assume you haven’t actually read the books or studied his work in any detail.
 

Awakening at the highest levels gets into non-dual consciousness which is also included in Hawkins models. The highest awakening being infinite love. 
 

Awakenings actually do include relative things. To not include them, is paradoxically dualism. There are various ‘levels’ of awakenings, realizations and insights. 

All your emotions, states etc are Gods mind of course. 
 

The highest levels of God realization, I may not have reached yet. Though, there are awakenings I have had that are beyond all human psychology and emotion.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Thought Art

[BuddhistLover]

@Leo Gura I know what you're saying bro, at first it seems smart, then you see that it's just a bunch of made up stuff that doesn't apply to reality. I hope actualized.org stays around for at least another solid 10-15+ years it's been a solid run so far. It's been a blast my man. I don't know what the fuck I'd do without you, prolly would be crying in a ditch, so thank you for not giving up on me, YOU ARE AMAZING! I love you!

Edited July 12, 2022 by BuddhistLover

[OBEler]

@BuddhistLover in 10 - 15 years an ai developed by Chinese government will rule the Internet. Every suspicious open minded site (like actualized.org) will be censored. I think this can happen

[Jodistrict]

17 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Enlightenment is about the truth. Healing is about well-being. Different paths with overlapping aspects that can complement each other. I didn't imply that they're mutually exclusive.

Can you clarify what you meant by the second sentence?

There are many ways you could approach it.  One approach is the Buddhist 8 fold path,  where the first steps are ethics and rules like maintaining proper speech.  This is to stabilize the mind and prepare it for the later steps of concentration and meditation.      One metaphor is that of comparing the mind to a pond of water and enlightenment would be a perfectly still pond where one could see to the bottom.   The first step would be to root out all unethical behavior because any such behavior causes large waves in the pond.  Then healing would stabilize the mind even more because trauma creates ongoing conflicts which create ongoing waves.  Clearing trauma allows more stabilization.  Meditation quiets the remaining subtle movements.  In this metaphor there is no separation between healing and enlightenment.  You could find other metaphors to illustrate the unity.

[UnbornTao]

On 7/12/2022 at 3:11 AM, Thought Art said:

Becoming aware and becoming conscious are adjacent, correlated and related to one another.

At that point the distinctions aren't clear then. Awareness is a function of mind, mind is a form of consciousness.

On 7/12/2022 at 3:11 AM, Thought Art said:

Also, there is a difference between pure consciousness, pure awareness and of course when we say being more aware or more conscious.

 

Quote

A donkey isn’t that aware. A flower and a sheep have different qualities Of awareness. 

My point is that, since none of us is a flower or a donkey, we can't really be sure of what their experiences are like.

Your statement is an educated speculation or protection.

Quote

Historically, survival needs have been different. Enlightenment can say little about how to act in life. It doesn’t mean you won’t kill people.

Enlightenment and development are two different things.

Enlightenment recontextualizes your life but doesn't really change it.

Quote

The Hawkins degrees of consciousness is a finite model. It’s more than saying each level is an emotion, but a state relative to human existence and psychology and way of interacting with, seeing and being in the world.

Fair though. It can be useful in many ways.

Love Hawkins.

Quote

Awakenings actually do include relative things. To not include them, is paradoxically dualism. 

there are awakenings I have had that are beyond all human psychology and emotion.

By awakening and enlightenment it is meant direct consciousness into the nature of the absolute nature of some aspect of existence, usually you.

Sounds to me like you're using those terms more broadly.

Edited November 8, 2022 by UnbornTao