Leo, why is internet marketing the devils work?

[B222]

Think saying that is overgeneralised. Seems there’s a lot of dodgy shit going on to persuade people to buy what they don’t really need but there’s also the other end in persuading people to buy for their own good right? Would be good to hear you go into this more and anyone else who has opinions on this 

[something_else]

The problem is that the people who provide value often use the same grifty marketing tactics as the grifters, so it’s hard to distinguish between valuable info and useless crap online sometimes

 

[B222]

@something_else Any examples? If you’re referring to persuasion, I think there’s good persuasion and bad. Persuading someone by using cognitive biases or whatever to get them to buy something that will improve their lives is good. People don’t like spending money but because marketers try to ‘force’ a sale from them doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing. We’re wired to run more from pain than we are to chase pleasure, so the pain of losing the money sometimes seems greater than the value they’ll get, when it isn’t actually the case. I think??‍♂️but getting someone to buy something that’ll have greater value on their lives seems like a service to/from god. What you think?

Edited July 8, 2022 by B222

[B222]

Think people have a bad stigma vs marketers in general even though there’s a lot of them, who still get bad reviews in some cases, are doing mega service to the world and transforming lives. I remember I shown a high quality Tai Lopez video to my mate. Was like the 2nd/3rd time I was playing it and his 1st. I was mind blown and excited while he said somewhere in along the lines of “but can’t you hear the way he puts it, manipulative” or some shit. Had to change the subject?how can you dismiss so much gold for something so minor, which in the end is in the recipients best interests anyway lol ??‍♂️

[Leo Gura]

All marketing is basically devirly.

[Leo Gura]

Because marketing is not about truth, it's about presenting a biased picture in order to persuade a sale.

[Hello from Russia]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Because marketing is not about truth, it's about presenting a biased picture in order to persuade a sale.

But Leo, for example if we market conscious things.

The problem is that conscious things have such a bad appeal and the perception of them is so negatively biased, even if we somewhat neutralize the 'picture', we can still move forward with them

And what's the problem with bias anyways? We are here on earth to have our biases in a sense. Maya is the world of bias you could say, it's the name of the game. What's wrong with promoting things that will assumably be healthy for society? 

In a sense you're doing it yourself in your videos. You're constantly marketing various conscious stuff to us, highlighting the benefits and presenting the "mundane" life in a very negative light. It's usually SUPER negative because you want it to have some emotional impact and this is your bias which is fine

In a sense, not having any bias and emotional charge for these things would be a disservice

Edited July 8, 2022 by Hello from Russia

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hello from Russia said:

You're constantly marketing various conscious stuff to us

I don't market to you. And to the extent I do, I am a devil.

[flowboy]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because marketing is not about truth, it's about presenting a biased picture in order to persuade a sale.

I see what you're saying.

BUT

What if presenting a biased picture is the most compassionate, loving thing to do, because someone at a certain stage of development could never accept the non-biased version and would therefore miss the chance to benefit?

 

Can't go all turquoise on someone in stage Orange. But you can seduce them into Green?

Edited July 8, 2022 by flowboy

[UnbornTao]

Marketing is basically an euphemism for manipulation.

Not that that's "bad". 

[flowboy]

@UnbornTao A small subset of manipulation.

Pottery is also manipulation.

[Vynce]

There is certainly a form of marketing that is necessary for personal growth. 

I would never have started my journey of actualization without fancy thumbnails, speeches, insta posts and stories from friends. all of this is marketing. 

The best marketing is marketing, that is not so concerned about it's survival. Rare to find.

[something_else]

9 hours ago, B222 said:

@something_else Any examples? If you’re referring to persuasion, I think there’s good persuasion and bad. Persuading someone by using cognitive biases or whatever to get them to buy something that will improve their lives is good. People don’t like spending money but because marketers try to ‘force’ a sale from them doesn’t mean it’s a bad thing. We’re wired to run more from pain than we are to chase pleasure, so the pain of losing the money sometimes seems greater than the value they’ll get, when it isn’t actually the case. I think??‍♂️but getting someone to buy something that’ll have greater value on their lives seems like a service to/from god. What you think?

The self-help industry is rife with this, more than any other industry. Almost any self-help course or book you look at online will use grifty techniques for marketing.

Leo is one of the few who I would say has taken a really un-grifty approach and I have tons of respect for him for that. It's probably the only reason I'd actually feel confident buying his LP course at some point. But the problem is that most people respond well to the grifty shit, so if you wanna maximise money earned it's just what you do, even if you have a valuable product.

I bet you Leo has lost out on hundreds of thousands of dollars because he avoids things like over-promising, teasing, clickbait, constantly reminding you of his courses/products, and other forms of heavy marketing.

Without going into too much detail for obvious reasons, I also work for an online marketing company and we see a lot of people who mean well but market like absolute psychopaths because it's what works. They forget that they are marketing to people and they become robots who just do whatever maximises their KPIs

[Yarco]

Is all of business in general also inherently devilry then?

Then wouldn't any aspect of life where your survival gets involved be completely infected with devilry too? Growing (exploiting) crops or livestock for your own benefit and survival is devilry. Fishing is devilry. All of dating and relationships is devilry, all of politics is devilry... even if you think you're doing it in a concious way for good reasons? If not, then what separates them from marketing? Dating is just marketing yourself as a potential partner. Politics is just marketing ideas.

Everything in the world is devilry, even a mother's love for her child because it releases endorphins and other chemicals for her in return, and she has some expectation that her child will provide her back with love and support in the future, on an instinctual level wanting your genetics to continue surviving?

Just being human makes being a devil inescapable.

Edited July 8, 2022 by Yarco

[jimwell]

5 hours ago, Yarco said:

Is all of business in general also inherently devilry then?

Then wouldn't any aspect of life where your survival gets involved be completely infected with devilry too? Growing (exploiting) crops or livestock for your own benefit and survival is devilry. Fishing is devilry. All of dating and relationships is devilry, all of politics is devilry... even if you think you're doing it in a concious way for good reasons? If not, then what separates them from marketing? Dating is just marketing yourself as a potential partner. Politics is just marketing ideas.

Everything in the world is devilry, even a mother's love for her child because it releases endorphins and other chemicals for her in return, and she has some expectation that her child will provide her back with love and support in the future, on an instinctual level wanting your genetics to continue surviving?

Just being human makes being a devil inescapable.

It is because to be alive is to be evil. We just need to be at peace with that.

All human activities such as dating, business, marketing, politics, etc. involve some form of exploitation and deception. And deception is devilry. 

I started a business myself and I was guilty of deceptive marketing, at least to a slight degree. I needed to do it, otherwise I wouldn't persuade a sale. How would my business survive without some form of deception?

The point is to minimize the evil things you do while alive. You will always be a devil in some form as long as you are alive. You just need to be at peace with that.

It's also good to create as much beauty and goodness as you can while alive. That compensates for your devilry.  

[UnbornTao]

@jimwell I wouldn't call it deception and exploitation, unless they were in fact the case. 

Certainly one can use marketing deceptively and in order to "exploit." But again, I see it more as an euphemism for manipulation -- getting others to buy your service or product. What that entails is up for grabs.

Apple, for example, offers great products using remarkable marketing strategies. Their products are generally represented honestly, too.

On the other hand, some companies straight out lie or misrepresent their products or simply offer a mediocre one while selling you the cure to all your problems.

So, you can manipulate in a straightforward way without necessarily "lying" by offering a great product or service, and getting others to notice it.

[UnbornTao]

9 hours ago, flowboy said:

@UnbornTao A small subset of manipulation.

Pottery is also manipulation.

What do you mean? 

Existentially speaking then, moving a chair in order to sit on it is manipulation.

A small subset? In which ways? Can you elaborate/clarify?

The key difference seems to be that marketing involves manipulating others while pottery is about manipulating an object.

Edited July 8, 2022 by UnbornTao

[jimwell]

44 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Apple, for example, offers great products using remarkable marketing strategies. Their products are generally represented honestly, too.

Apple is very good at deceptive marketing, its buyers or fans such as you don't even know that they have been deceived.

If it's only partially true then it is not true. If Apple was really being honest with their marketing, they would advertise their products something similar to this:

iPhone 13 is the best on the market. Take pride in owning a phone which uses cutting-edge technology and has an affordable price. Of course, it is all made possible via the exploitation of the blood and sweat of underpaid wage slaves around the world, especially in China. On top of that, Apple has been a secret supporter of forced labor. But Apple is very good at pretending to be ethical. So, join us and be a pretender.

The video below is the source. 

 

Capitalism and marketing are metaphorically dirty in many ways.

 

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

The key difference seems to be that marketing involves manipulating others while pottery is about manipulating an object.

I like the way you put that

[UnbornTao]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, jimwell said:

Apple is very good at deceptive marketing, its buyers or fans such as you don't even know that they have been deceived.

If it's only partially true then it is not true. If Apple was really being honest with their marketing, they would advertise their products something similar to this:

iPhone 13 is the best on the market. Take pride in owning a phone which uses cutting-edge technology and has an affordable price. Of course, it is all made possible via the exploitation of the blood and sweat of underpaid wage slaves around the world, especially in China. On top of that, Apple has been a secret supporter of forced labor. But Apple is very good at pretending to be ethical. So, join us and be a pretender.

The video below is the source. 

 

Capitalism and marketing are metaphorically dirty in many ways.

 

I don't own any Apple product.

I've heard about those rumors but don't know about their legitimacy. They're a big corporation. Could be possible.

But again, relative to products: their new MacBooks have received a lot of praise. Those ARM-based laptops have revolutionized the industry in terms of performance/efficiency. The M1 MacBook Air has a 9.5/10 score on The Verge.

When you buy a product from a company like this, you know that it is a high-quality one.

With a great product, then marketing is about creating interest so that others buy them. That was my point.

Edited July 10, 2022 by UnbornTao