Is sexist behaviour the root for transgenderism ?

[Jannes]

Most of society still has a lot of old fashioned ideas about what a men is or what a women is. So a boy or a girl who doesn’t want to act in his/her genderspecifik way has it really hard in society. A friend of mine recently started wearing dresses and make-up and even though I don’t have a strong masculine ego and I would say I am a pretty open person that was still really hard to accept for me. It was really hard for me to look him in his eyes. I even told him that this sudden change just really messes with me but that he can be sure that I won’t treat him any differently. And he told me that I was pretty much the most accepting person in his friend group. So there is just SO MUCH pressure still in society that we have to act a certain way when we are a boy or a girl. So what many people might think is „the only way I will be able to express myself in a masculine/feminine way is when I change my physical appearance“. Because they think if they look like a guy/girl they are also allowed to act that way. Which is sexist itself. So if all the sexist ideas would go away and a boy would feel free to act like a girl and a girl would feel free to act like a boy would there be a need to change yourself physically ? 

I don’t want to spread transgender hate. I accept transgender people just as much as other people. But it’s simply a fact that having a lot of operations done to your body and taking a lot of hormones isn’t good for your body so if these physical interventions don’t need to take place it would be better imo. 
 

Would love to hear your opinion.

[Raptorsin7]

4 minutes ago, Jannes said:

But it’s simply a fact that having a lot of operations done to your body and taking a lot of hormones isn’t good for your body so if these physical interventions don’t need to take place it would be better imo. 

Yeah this is where I get skeptical about soundness of trans philosophy. The idea that you have to make all these changes to be WHO YOU ARE just sets off alarm bells. The idea that making these changes will then lead to happiness or alleviate suffering is a huge trap.

What was the reason your friend gave for making these changes? What were they like before their transition in appearance etc?

[Jannes]

16 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Yeah this is where I get skeptical about soundness of trans philosophy. The idea that you have to make all these changes to be WHO YOU ARE just sets off alarm bells. The idea that making these changes will then lead to happiness or alleviate suffering is a huge trap.

What was the reason your friend gave for making these changes? What were they like before their transition in appearance etc?

My friend was always a bit soft. Meaning he was always pretty agreeable non confrontational and pretty emotional. He said that the idea of becoming more “girly“ grew in him for many years but he was to afraid to let act it out until a year ego. (So with recently I mean a year ago which isn’t really that recent I know) I think he found himself though. He says he likes being a straight dude but likes to wear dresses and makes his nails. Maybe there is a lot of aggression in his shadow, maybe not idk. 

[Osaid]

You might be onto something. I think the tendency to think of sexuality as something that can be pushed into rigid boxes or labels can also push people into behaviors that don't entirely suit them. For example, in the case of your friend, he might be pushed to dress or look as a guy or girl so that he can be perceived as and operate as a guy or girl throughout society. If there isn't an easy way to identify someone's gender, they will probably be misunderstood and misclassified, so there is definitely a push to exaggerate how they look and act in society. And also, the idea of gender always being some rigid category can lead people to assume that they should fit themselves into that rigid category even if it isn't entirely accurate to them.

Sexist behavior could be a significant factor, but I'm not sure if it's the root. The root seems to be confusion around identity and interests and just how sexuality works in general. You're right, hormones and surgery seem to be an objectively bad route for the most part, I see it as akin to getting radical plastic surgery to change how your body looks. It just leads to a lot of health complications, and in a lot of cases, regret. It seems to be a very crude materialistic approach. If there was actually some magical way to properly sexual organs and hormones with no complications or health effects or whatever that would be nice, but doesn't seem reasonable, that's just not how things are. Also what do you do if after you've transitioned you realize you're genderfluid or something and that you wanna switch back, that would be tough.

Life doesn't seem to like being black and white, so I can't say what the "answer" is, but I can definitely say it involves deep contemplation around sexuality and identity and such things, and these are things that basically no one in society nowadays really understands so it will be challenging. And my intuition tells me radical surgery and hormone therapy is probably not the way to go, that seems to be a rabbit hole which might lead to more confusion in the long run, it reminds me of that guy who keeps getting surgery in order to look like his favorite K-pop idol. I think the key might be dropping the overreliance on gender labels though.

5 minutes ago, Jannes said:

He says he likes being a straight dude but likes to wear dresses and makes his nails.

Yeah see, traditional gender labels can't account for nuances like this. What gender is "likes being straight but occasionally likes to wear dresses and paint nails sometimes" lol. There might be some gender labels that can potentially account for this, like genderflux, but they are too abstract and non-specific to really be useful. Or you could say he's a femboy, but that's about as useful as calling someone a tomboy, yeah it hints at their traits but still doesn't say much.

[BeHereNow]

@Jannes

Trans people like me and your friend can't go a minute without our legitimacy or existence questioned or laughed out, it's really humiliating and degrading. No wonder the suicide rate for us is so high. After a while I'm questioning whether I'm respecting myself being on this forum or not, I don't think I am.

Yh fuck it I'm done with forum and actualized.org, y'all can fun with your culture war bullshit. I'm better than this.

@Leo Gura thank you for all of the content you've put out throughout the years, it's been life changing for me. Take care.

[Yog]

It looks to me like there are 2 main categories.

1. People that have biological, possibly brain and hormonal differences, that lead to major psychological differences, those would be the legit cases.

2. Those who have unresolved trauma, or/and are just doing ego-identity games (especially the younger ones) and end up falling under the internet mania.

[Dryas]

Well, terfs exist 

[Jannes]

9 hours ago, BeHereNow said:

@Jannes

Trans people like me and your friend can't go a minute without our legitimacy or existence questioned or laughed out, it's really humiliating and degrading. No wonder the suicide rate for us is so high. After a while I'm questioning whether I'm respecting myself being on this forum or not, I don't think I am.

Look I am really trying hard to understand trans people. And I am not perfect of course. I try to be as open minded as possible but when you grow up in a society that has traditional values you can’t help but take most of that mindset with you. So sorry if I sound like an ape to you because I still am. And I am sorry to hear that it’s hard for you in society. Do you live in a stage green place ? If not you may have a better time there..

I would still love to hear your opinion on that matter.  

[Carl-Richard]

@BeHereNow If people can't discuss how they truly feel and how it's interfering with their desire to change in a desired direction, it would not be a personal development forum. It would just be a forum of lies and appearances, like the rest of society.

[Bobby_2021]

For me, I am grounded in the idea that I will treat all people equally even if I have different emotional reactions about their appearances.

This is something I clearly decided when I was young. So many people project to others what they think of others. You don't control your emotional reactions. But you can always treat others with respect regardless.

Such strength to not act on your emotions must be instilled in everyone. So I can easily resist actually talking to him that "you look x way".

That's completely irrelevant and makes you look like a dumbfuck and immature for pointing silly things of their appearance. 

I don't condone surgeries on minors to remove their sex organs. If they can't drink alcohol or give consent for sex, how are they allowed to give consent for gender transition surgeries the effects of which may last a lifetime. I hope we can move away from it slowly and allow people to act whatever way they want. 

[Jannes]

11 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

For me, I am grounded in the idea that I will treat all people equally even if I have different emotional reactions about their appearances.

yeah me too, that’s why I treated him the same even though I wasn’t feeling it. 

Quote

I don't condone surgeries on minors to remove their sex organs. If they can't drink alcohol or give consent for sex, how are they allowed to give consent for gender transition surgeries the effects of which may last a lifetime. I hope we can move away from it slowly and allow people to act whatever way they want. 

Yeah that’s a heated topic. The thing is just that as an adult you can’t turn your body around as well as in young teenage years. But your mind also isn’t fully developed so you aren’t ready to make these long lasting decisions. I don’t think this problem can really be solved.  

Edited July 6, 2022 by Jannes