If you thought the roll back of roe vs wade was bad, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[WisdomSeeker]

https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-conservative-majority-could-reshape-american-elections-2022-7

If the now conservative majority of the supreme court is successful in the supporting of gerry mandering maps, then the U.S. is DONE. You think the rollback of roe vs wade is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet, if gerrymandering is upheld. @Leo Gura

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by WisdomSeeker

[DocWatts]

No other way to frame this than as the drawn out collapse of US democracy.

[WisdomSeeker]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

No other way to frame this than as the drawn out collapse of US democracy.

agreed

[Devin]

Gerrymandering could never be a sustainable problem, society is self balancing. Just look at what's going on right now, the side with the advantage grossly oversteps, this moves enough people away from them.

If we can go from a slavery nation where that's a massive part of our economy, gerrymandering isn't a silver bullet.

Gerrymandering is playing with margins, if there's a super majority base, they will be in power despite any amount of gerrymandering

What is the end of America anyway? Is it actually a big deal? It's never been the harbinger of hope or freedom like it claims, most Americans are enslaved by the culture now

Edited July 4, 2022 by Devin
Add

[WisdomSeeker]

42 minutes ago, Devin said:

What is the end of America anyway? Is it actually a big deal? It's never been the harbinger of hope or freedom like it claims, most Americans are enslaved by the culture now

I don't disagree with you. But everything is relative and yes it could get worse. To your slavery nation remark, it took a civil war and millions dead for us to move past that era. I realize it's not helpful to be anxious about the future, but it is helpful to see the direction in which we are moving, imo. 

[Devin]

18 minutes ago, WisdomSeeker said:

I don't disagree with you. But everything is relative and yes it could get worse. To your slavery nation remark, it took a civil war and millions dead for us to move past that era. I realize it's not helpful to be anxious about the future, but it is helpful to see the direction in which we are moving, imo. 

How do you think it might get worse? They ban gay marriage in some states, push for the bible in schools.

I don't see it being worse than that, their shenanigans will catch up to them with this religious esque crap, there's a lot of people in this country that are not completely mindless.

To your point about ending slavery, that's my point as well; look at what the people were willing to sacrifice to end slavery(for OTHER people), I don't think we'll likely move back into it with less effort, and minorities will be able to fight for themselves this time.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Devin

[Leo Gura]

Yes, it's bad. But don't get all depressed and nihilistic about it. America will recover from this dark age.

These right-wing decisions will not stand long-term because they will be both unworkable and deeply unpopular.

All this just goes to show that elections matter, and both sides are not equally bad. If people vote in the right ways they will have a better country and vice versa.

[abundance]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, it's bad. But don't get all depressed and nihilistic about it. America will recover from this dark age.

These right-wing decisions will not stand long-term because they will be both unworkable and deeply unpopular.

All this just goes to show that elections matter, and both sides are not equally bad. If people vote in the right ways they will have a better country and vice versa.

How bad do think things will have to get in order for Americans to come to that realization? And if SCOTUS rules in favor of this case wouldn't it essentially be impossible to dispose of this right wing government via electoral politics?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, abundance said:

How bad do think things will have to get in order for Americans to come to that realization?

Nobody knows. We have to see how things unfold and adjust improvisationally.

We're dealing with a massively chaotic system here so you're not gonna be able to predict it well. It's like trying to predict the weather 1 year from now.

[BlueOak]

14 hours ago, Devin said:

are enslaved by the culture now

Expand on this if you would. A strong culture is a necessity for a civilization to endure. There are plenty of problems in most cultures, but it being strongly present isn't one of them.

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, it's bad. But don't get all depressed and nihilistic about it. America will recover from this dark age.

These right-wing decisions will not stand long-term because they will be both unworkable and deeply unpopular.

All this just goes to show that elections matter, and both sides are not equally bad. If people vote in the right ways they will have a better country and vice versa.

How can you know this? I understand it's better to think it than the opposite, and that in itself can lead a path to a better outcome.

Things don't always go in the right direction, especially with the shifting geopolitical scene. I still don't see authoritarianism stopping because China's influence continues to grow globally, just like many eastern nations. That's where the population is and so that's where the world is. I had high hopes India's influence would moderate or balance this out, but that has taken a huge knock in the wrong direction with their choice of solidifying their links with Russia. Even if publicly they try to toe a middle ground they're buying up every barrel of Russian oil (and more) that the western democracies leave behind.

I can't predict exactly how long a trend will last, but I see anything from another decade to a hundred years more of regression before this is done, sure with peaks and dips, but generally speaking a move towards older values, and older ways of doing things. A good time for a break from incarnations again or a time skip.

Edited July 5, 2022 by BlueOak

[Devin]

22 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Expand on this if you would. A strong culture is a necessity for a civilization to endure. There are plenty of problems in most cultures, but it being strongly present isn't one of them.

People are intentionally manipulated in a way that harms them, for the perceived gain of others; materialism

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Expand on this if you would. A strong culture is a necessity for a civilization to endure. There are plenty of problems in most cultures, but it being strongly present isn't one of them.

How can you know this? I understand it's better to think it than the opposite, and that in itself can lead a path to a better outcome.

Things don't always go in the right direction, especially with the shifting geopolitical scene. I still don't see authoritarianism stopping because China's influence continues to grow globally, just like many eastern nations. That's where the population is and so that's where the world is. I had high hopes India's influence would moderate or balance this out, but that has taken a huge knock in the wrong direction with their choice of solidifying their links with Russia. Even if publicly they try to toe a middle ground they're buying up every barrel of Russian oil (and more) that the western democracies leave behind.

I can't predict exactly how long a trend will last, but I see anything from another decade to a hundred years more of regression before this is done, sure with peaks and dips, but generally speaking a move towards older values, and older ways of doing things. A good time for a break from incarnations again or a time skip.

We are evolving from Orange to Green. THIS is what it looks like. Don't get your panties twisted. No one is going to stop evolution.

[BlueOak]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

We are evolving from Orange to Green. THIS is what it looks like. Don't get your panties twisted. No one is going to stop evolution.

I tell myself that now and again. 

It is difficult not to feel squeezed because the world is reforming all countries to gradually have a closer set of values, which for us turns the clocks back 60 years. You yourself have said evolution or development is both coming and breaking apart though.

[BlueOak]

51 minutes ago, Devin said:

People are intentionally manipulated in a way that harms them, for the perceived gain of others; materialism

Materialism has many flaws but it is part of the culture. A weak culture leads to a stagnating society and a breakdown in it. Often I'll comment on how to reform materialism -> recycling items -> minimalist living -> ? 

It isn't the only part of American culture, perhaps as an outsider looking in I see more than that? Certainly, you have Hollywood, Football, Lots of foods, dances, music, not as many museums or old historical landmarks. You have a great deal of native American influence, Spanish and Mexican influences, cuisine, dress, food, customs, languages, cars, historic industries etc. You also have several famous buildings.

The alternative to a strong culture is social decay, disconnection, economic depression, crime, disorder and sometimes war (depending on who is in power).

Edited July 5, 2022 by BlueOak

[Devin]

3 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Materialism has many flaws but it is part of the culture. A weak culture leads to a stagnating society and a breakdown in it. Often I'll comment on how to reform materialism -> recycling items -> minimalist living -> ? 

It isn't the only part of American culture, perhaps as an outsider looking in I see more than that? Certainly, you have Hollywood, Football, Lots of foods, dances, music, not as many museums or old historical landmarks. You have a great deal of native American influence, Spanish and Mexican influences, cuisine, dress, food, customs, languages, cars, historic industries etc. You also have several famous buildings.

The alternative to a strong culture is social decay, disconnection, economic depression, crime, disorder and sometimes war (depending on who is in power).

What would weak culture look like?

[BlueOak]

9 minutes ago, Devin said:

What would weak culture look like?

Traditionally weak cultures are overtaken by neighboring cultures, either preceding the breakdown of the nation/group, its laws and social structure, else being absorbed into another culture.

It would look like people who don't know who they are as a cultural identity, that have no reinforcing/defining elements to that identity present or accepted by that group of people. 

[Devin]

Just now, BlueOak said:

Traditionally weak cultures are overtaken by neighboring cultures, either preceding the breakdown of the nation/group, its laws and social structure, else being absorbed into another culture.

It would look like people who don't know who they are as a cultural identity, that have no reinforcing/defining elements to that identity present or accepted by that group of people. 

Have an example?

[BlueOak]

24 minutes ago, Devin said:

Have an example?

There have been countless cultures that have come and gone over history.

In my lifetime I've seen modern-day Britain have a cultural crisis as middle England was all but removed, where the village life was usurped by towns and culturally lost its way for a while. The rise of the chav for example :), which in reality was just the new youth of the time. I imagine the same in a more severe fashion happened as its 'empire crumbled'. 10-15 years ago I used to ask people what English culture was? I got very weak answers. One of the positives over the last 10 years was a slow re-establishing of english identity and culture, through media efforts and national programs. For example I was against brexit but one reason it was successful was England in a way needed that jolt, to say I still exist and have a voice. The cultural aspect of that is almost overlooked, and one reason why the EU struggles with unity or did until it had a common enemy in Russia.

Rome - https://blablawriting.net/prime-relationship-roman-culture-absorbed-essay

A classic one Romans used to absorb cultures slowly by taking aspects of their culture and integrating it, some were strong enough to persist after rome fell, some didn't. 

Search Engines favorite answer: Bantu Migrations
https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv114c79k.8?seq=1

Lots of cultures were absorbed during this period.

Let's just look at just one area I know well.

England had the beakers which nobody remembers, druidism much of which was removed (people say celts, others gauls), the anglo-saxons which it is said peaceful changed the druidic culture over time, the normans changed it not so peacefully! The vikings which had an impact on many local areas, and we arrive at the combined english culture of which some of the old remains and some doesn't.

I'm not going to touch China, because i'd do a poor job, which has had more historic cultural sites destroyed than anyone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_destroyed_heritage#China

Edited July 5, 2022 by BlueOak

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, BlueOak said:

which for us turns the clocks back 60 years.

Don't exaggerate. We are racing into the future at break-neck pace. A bit of backlash will not stop evolution.

[BlueOak]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't exaggerate. We are racing into the future at break-neck pace. A bit of backlash will not stop evolution.

There is no exaggeration. I see styles, fashions, even names and cultural trends from the 50's. I see TV shows and films that could have been set in the 50's. I see civil rights being rolled back 50 years. I see authoritarian powers that have outlooks as if they were a European power from the last century. I see politicians wanting to roll us back to that time. I see religion on the rise again in decision-making. I see the ability to protest at an all-time low globally. I see censorship has reached almost draconian levels. I see the intelligence services behaving as if we were in a cold war era, even before all this recent mess with regards to surveillance and privacy.

To reach stage green globally the several billion people stuck in our version of the 50's will naturally have an effect on our lives. To acknowledge that is not an exaggeration.

I've accepted it. I hate it in many ways, because I hate the authoritarian part of me, and that's my issue. What it does make me more sensitive to is authoritarian changes happening, and they have been happening since the early 2000's. Which hopefully now anyone can see as clear as day.