Operating Systems - Thoughts on Windows, Linux & macOS

[UnbornTao]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:32 AM, MarkKol said:

You've seen those "Linux users installing a web browser" memes? running commands vs clicking an icon to open a program, there's a clear winner.

Quote

wisemen say... Linux is free, if you don't value your time.

Yeah, well, it's pretty fun to learn, too. If what you value are privacy, security and customization, Linux may be ideal for you.

It could also be considered a hobby by users who aren't tech-savvy.

Quote

the m1 macbook is great, I admit. but the m2 air, not as much

edit: I shouldn't hold strong opinions until its released but that's my prediction

It's presumably a decent and more expensive improvement. Now with a notch!

I've been tempted to buy $500 PC laptops several times. It's best to see a purchase like this as a long-term investment, though. Cheap PCs won't hold up very well after two or three years of intensive daily use.

Edited November 3, 2022 by UnbornTao

[Eternal Unity]

Windows 10 is preferable for me. 11 has issues with some of the software I download there.

[UnbornTao]

1 hour ago, Eternal Unity said:

Windows 10 is preferable for me. 11 has issues with some of the software I download there.

That's weird. What software?

Is it the only thing stopping you from upgrading?

[Eternal Unity]

@UnbornTao Yes. The software is called 'MemoQ', it's a program for translating documents.

[thisintegrated]

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Compared to a similarly-priced Windows laptop, which one would hold up best after a few years?

High-end HP Spectre & Lenovo Yoga models.  Touchscreen + flexable = doubles up as a tablet.  So that's like £2k in added value, while being cheaper than a macbook.

 

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

That sounds nihilistic. What's wrong with macOS?

If you want, advantages to both can be found.

I guess it's fine.  Just restrictive.  I know there are many issues I have with it, but I don't recall.  I don't normally use MacOS.

 

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

M1 is one of the best investments you can make

It's efficient, but not exactly powerful.  In a few years we'll have RISC intel/AMC CPUs which put Apple back in its place.

 

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

will come later this year with the 22H2 update

I've been hearing about Microsoft's promises for years.  I'll believe it when I see it.

[UnbornTao]

On 7/15/2022 at 1:51 AM, thisintegrated said:

High-end HP Spectre & Lenovo Yoga models.  Touchscreen + flexable = doubles up as a tablet.  So that's like £2k in added value, while being cheaper than a macbook.

Yes, they're innovative but this kind of PCs usually come with compromises.

They're thick, heavy, get ridiculously hot, loud fans, negligible battery life as compared to M1, and performance drops radically unless plugged to power. This is nonsense. Even if plugged in, they can't match M1 and when they do, battery only lasts for 4 hours at best. Worse screen, webcams, etc. To be fair, many win on the graphics department.

The PCs that you mentioned exemplify two half-assed jobs, versus one thing well-executed, as is now the case with custom silicon Macs.

Microsoft still hasn't figured out how to adapt Windows to 2-in-1's for both use cases without bothering either one or both groups.

By restricting their OS to the traditional mouse and keyboard input, Apple avoids this dilemma.

Quote

It's efficient, but not exactly powerful.  In a few years we'll have RISC intel/AMC CPUs which put Apple back in its place.

I'll believe it when I see it. 

When it comes to efficient computing and ARM productivity, Apple is currently at the top. They have a head start over the competition. Intel misses Apple, not the other way around.

As an amateur, I suspect that the x84 architecture will probably become irrelevant in a couple of decades as it is inherently inefficient, hence unsuitable for portable devices. ARM and RISC-V seem to be the future of chip design.

Edited November 3, 2022 by UnbornTao

[something_else]

23 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Apparently it is a decent, and more expensive, improvement. Now with a notch!

My work bought me one of the new M1 Macbook Pros as my work laptop. I thought I'd have issues with compatibility since it's ARM but I haven't had a single issue. And it's super speedy, super quiet and super sleek. Plus, the screen is better than any screen on any other device I've ever owned in my life

But it's easy to be a fan when you aren't footing the bill of a Macbook 

[thisintegrated]

On 15/07/2022 at 4:04 PM, UnbornTao said:

Those are innovative but these kinds of computers, including 2-in-1's, come with various pitfalls and compromises, usually.

Their fans get loud, they are thick, heavy and get really hot, battery life is comparatively negligible, and performance drops radically unless plugged to power, which is nonsense. Even if plugged in, they can't match M1 and when they do, battery lasts 3 hours. Their screens and webcams are worse, etc. 

These are examples of doing two things in a mediocre way instead of one well-executed.

Microsoft can't figure out how to make 2-in-1 devices work in Windows for both use cases without bothering one or both groups. Apple avoids this problem by limiting macOS to non-touch input.

w-what?!

Microsoft doesn't even make those.  Apple doesn't even make those!!

I've used a lenovo yoga 2 in 1, and it's damn amazing.  Like 10-12 hours of battery life with moderate use.  Not mediocre in any way.  Once you try, you can't go back to regular laptops.  Those £4000 macbooks feel like a downgrade in comparison.

 

A Macbook may, in some ways, be a more polished laptop..

..but traditional laptops are the past.  If you're a Blue ISTJ or something you may want a traditional laptop, but I personally wouldn't wanna invest in a dying technology.

 

Quote

I'll believe it when I see it. 

For now, Apple dominates in ARM mobile productivity and efficient computing. They have a head start. Intel misses Apple, not the other way around.

Intel is scared about its future survival and should change course radically, imo. They offer good products; however, the x86 architecture is inefficient and will likely become irrelevant. ARM and RISC-V are the future.

Actually, much of the reason for Apple's current advantage is the fact they've pre-booked basically all of TSMC's capacity for 5nm chips.  Intel was always king, then it was AMD for a few years, and now Apple splurged on chips to finally come out on top for the first time, in a limited way.  AMD and Intel see this, and one will strike when the time is right.  It's a cycle.  AMD fanboys didn't think Intel was dead once AMD finally started beating Intel.  Apple waited many years before finally revealing M1.  It's not like they suddenly decided to create something and it turned out amazing first time just because it's Apple.  M1 was the result of many years of work, and it was only impressive because it came out of nowhere.  Now we're gonna just be seeing iterative upgrades.  The shock factor is gone.  The M2 will still be using the identical 5nm tech.  For the M3 they'll probably be saying "our all new third generation 5nm technology"??

Edited July 19, 2022 by thisintegrated

[UnbornTao]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:14 AM, thisintegrated said:

w-what?!

Microsoft doesn't even make those.

Poor wording.

I meant that Windows hasn't been optimally adapted to unconventional form factors by Microsoft yet. New touch-focused features piss off desktop users and viceversa.

No desktop OS has been made truly touch-friendly without having to compromise on usability in some way, as far as I know. Both Apple and Microsoft seem to be experimenting with their OSes in this regard.

Quote

Apple doesn't even make those!!

I didn't say that Macs were innovate but rather the PCs that you mentioned. You may have misinterpreted me.

Quote

I've used a lenovo yoga 2 in 1, and it's damn amazing.  Like 10-12 hours of battery life with moderate use.  Not mediocre in any way.  Once you try, you can't go back to regular laptops.  Those £4000 macbooks feel like a downgrade in comparison.

What about metrics like hardware quality (trackpad, screen, speakers, keyboard), weight, thickness, temperature, noise, performance, battery life? What's the touch experience like? Not as good as a tablet, I bet.

Overall, the M1 Air is the winner, except for touch and graphics.

Many people would prefer an excellent traditional device instead of a mediocre or even decent 2-in-1. I don't think this form factor has still fully developed.

Yes, PCs are of course versatile, open, cheap and customizable. For gaming, they're pretty much the best platform. Besides, they can offer discreet graphics card support.

Quote

A Macbook may, in some ways, be a more polished laptop..

..but traditional laptops are the past.  If you're a Blue ISTJ or something you may want a traditional laptop, but I personally wouldn't wanna invest in a dying technology.

Well, it's true and I frequently feel the same.

A screen without touch capabilities, except TVs and other specific gadgets, makes you feel like living in the Jurassic era. 

Plays Jurassic Park soundtrack.

Quote

Actually, much of the reason for Apple's current advantage is the fact they've pre-booked basically all of TSMC's capacity for 5nm chips.  Intel was always king, then it was AMD for a few years, and now Apple splurged on chips to finally come out on top for the first time, in a limited way.

Yes.

Qualcomm is their main competitor when it comes to mobile processors. Apple has been at the top of mobile processors for more than a decade. Their custom silicon dev kit used an iPad chip!

Quote

Apple waited many years before finally revealing M1.  It's not like they suddenly decided to create something and it turned out amazing first time just because it's Apple.

In a way, M1 was the culmination of a decades-old development that started with the first custom iPhone chip. They leveraged their expertise with their mobile custom processors and applied it to the desktop.

Quote

M1 was the result of many years of work, and it was only impressive because it came out of nowhere. Now we're gonna just be seeing iterative upgrades. The shock factor is gone. The M2 will still be using the identical 5nm tech.

On 7/14/2022 at 5:27 PM, UnbornTao said:

 

That doesn't seem to be the case. The M3 has been rumored to be built on 3nm and ARMv9 technology. Apple might choose to use that new technology only in their "pro" devices, though.

I'll be patiently waiting for an Intel or AMD processor with similar relationship between performance and efficiency as that of Apple Silicon. Both companies will likely have to switch to ARM sooner or later in order to achieve that.

Edited November 3, 2022 by UnbornTao

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Microsoft hasn't figured out a good way to implement Windows into 2-in-1s. Whenever they add a touch-focused feature, desktop users seem to complain, and viceversa.

No company has figured out yet a way to make their desktop OS touch-friendly without compromising usability in one way or the other, as far as I know.

That's true, but as you say.. "it's coming in the 22H2 update"..

 

But it's really already good enough.  You don't need any new optimizations to be able to use it like a kindle, or scroll images with your finger, or rearrange windows, play/pause media, etc. by touch.  And, if you wanted, you could probably download some app for gesture controls.

 

Quote

What about the trackpad, keyboard, and screen? How much does it weight? How hot and loud does it get? How does it perform compared to M1? What's the touch experience like?

I bet M1 Air wins in most of these aspects (not on touch, clearly).

Macbook keyboard are awful for the price.  Apple cares about slimness/appearance above all else, so the keyboards are typically worse than your average £200 laptop chicklet keyboard, from what I've heard.  They used to be better, but the past few years the keyboards have been made shallower and worse to type on.

Screen not sure.  Probably one of the best in laptops.

Speakers yeah, they're the best in a laptop.

Macbooks aren't 2 in 1s, so their weight doesn't even matter much as it's on your desk/lap anyway.

The yoga I used was always silent, and performance was similar to M1, but not quite as good.

This yoga cost like £550, so really unless you need MacOS or more processing power, the macbook just looks like a bad deal.

I think in almost all cases the greater capabilities of a windows 2 in 1 win out.  Can do more with it, a third of the price, and far fewer incompatibility issues.

 

Quote

I assume many people prefer an excellent traditional more than a good enough 2-in-1.

Definitely not me.  The laptops with a 2nd screen above the keyboard are great and would've been my top choice originally, but 2 in 1s aren't even just innovative laptops anymore.  They're the inevitable evolution of the laptop.

 

Quote

Well, it's true and I feel the same, sometimes. A screen without touch, except TVs, makes you feel like living in the Jurassic era. 

Plays Jurassic park theme.

Yep.  The only reason Apple is avoiding making touchscreen laptops is because it would cut into their profits on iPads.  Literally no other reason.  They'd rather you not even realize 2 in 1 laptops are a thing.  That's why they want you in their walled Apple garden.  They want to decide what you're allowed to think exists, and what doesn't.  This alone makes me avoid their products.  It's an Orange/Red culture at Apple, though of course they'd want you to think they're Green.

Apple:  "Look!  No charger = less packaging!! We're so Green??"

Everyone:  * now has to go buy a charger with its own several boxes of packaging *

Apple Loyalists/Simps:  "That's your fault for not already having this year's proprietary macbook charger"

 

Quote

For the first time?

Apple has been dominating on mobile processors in terms of performance/efficiency for a long time.

Their dev kit for Apple Silicon used an iPad processor!

In a way, M1 was the result of years of expertise in developing their own processors on the iPhone, iPad, etc.

Yes.  The mobile processors only recently caught up to snapdragons.  The efficiency was primarily due to aggressive software optimisations.

For the longest time, iPhones were like single/dual core, with <1GB or RAM, and like 720p screens, meanwhile android already had quadcores with 4GB+ of RAM and a minimum of 1080p screens.  The one and only reason iPhones weren't total garbage was because of the software optimisations.  Still slow AF when it came to processing heavy tasks.

 

Quote

That doesn't seem to be the case. The M3 has been rumored to be built on 3nm technology and ARMv9.

Apple may however choose to use that new technology in their "pro" devices only.

I'll be waiting for an Intel or AMD processor that accomplishes a similar relationship between performance and efficiency as AS does. It won't likely happen soon.

I think Apple also wanted 3nm for M2, but TSMC isn't ready for this yet.

Edited July 19, 2022 by thisintegrated

[UnbornTao]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:05 PM, thisintegrated said:

That's true, but as you say.. "it's coming in the 22H2 update"..

I didn't mention touch features.

Quote

But it's really already good enough.  You don't need any new optimizations to be able to use it like a kindle, or scroll images with your finger, or rearrange windows, play/pause media, etc. by touch. 

OK.

A HP Pavilion was the last 2-in-1 that I owned, more than four years ago. It was a mediocre experience at best but to be fair the device was pretty cheap.

Quote

Macbook keyboard are awful for the price.  Apple cares about slimness/appearance above all else, so the keyboards are typically worse than your average £200 laptop chicklet keyboard, from what I've heard.  They used to be better, but the past few years the keyboards have been made shallower and worse to type on.

You're confusing the latest ones with the awful butterfly keyboard from 3-4 years ago. Now MacBooks use the Magic Keyboard again – the original, better technology you're referring to.

Quote

Macbooks aren't 2 in 1s, so their weight doesn't even matter much as it's on your desk/lap anyway.

It's a portable device, after all. Portability is key.

If given the choice, everyone would want a thin and light laptop that doesn't compromise on function nor durability.

Quote

This yoga cost like £550, so really unless you need MacOS or more processing power, the macbook just looks like a bad deal.

I disagree. With Mac, you get a better package. They last better for longer. Furthermore, their resell value is higher. They can be sold probably for about 1/3 of the original cost after years of use.

People are always interested in buying old Macs while PCs drop in value just after being purchased. Not many people are willing to spend a lot of money in old laptops, unless it's a Mac.

So, depending on your needs, M1 Macbooks are a much better deal in the long term.

Quote

I think in almost all cases the greater capabilities of a windows 2 in 1 win out. Can do more with it, a third of the price, and far fewer incompatibility issues.

What do you mean by compatibility issues?

Quote

 

 

Yeah, at least give us that option!

Quote

Yep. The only reason Apple is avoiding making touchscreen laptops is because it would cut into their profits on iPads.  Literally no other reason. 

I suspect the same, let's see what they end up doing.

Porting macOS to iPad is a possibility, although a remote one imo. iPad Pro is already extremely powerful even though the OS is still quite immature, lacking a lot of basic desktop functionality.

Quote

They want to decide what you're allowed to think exists, and what doesn't.

Unnecessary hyperbole. They aren't a dictatorship.

Quote

This alone makes me avoid their products. It's an Orange/Red culture at Apple, though of course they'd want you to think they're Green.

To tell you the truth, they seem quite green to me.

If Apple isn't one of the few big green tech companies along with Google and Microsoft perhaps, then there aren't any. Funnily, it was founded by a hippie who was into spirituality and meditation. Of course, they're solid orange, too.

Quote

Yes. The mobile processors only recently caught up to snapdragons.

Haven't their mobile processors been top-class for a decade or more?

Quote

The efficiency was primarily due to aggressive software optimisations.

So what? Every company plays its cards. Microsoft could do the same, but they don't.

I'm sure that the processor helped a bit.

Quote

For the longest time, iPhones were like single/dual core, with <1GB or RAM, and like 720p screens, meanwhile android already had quadcores with 4GB+ of RAM and a minimum of 1080p screens.  The one and only reason iPhones weren't total garbage was because of the software optimisations. Still slow AF when it came to processing heavy tasks.

And yet they were still massively popular and loved by many.

Android manufacturers have to lure customers in with additional features and brute specs while Apple doesn't need to. Refining the basics like privacy, optimization, consistency, simplicity, and brand reputation is their focus. They can afford that luxury.

A benefit can be considered a drawback from another viewpoint, and viceversa:

1. Apple's OSes are locked down, offering less choice than a PC depending on your needs. On the other hand, that factor might in some ways contribute to better security, privacy, consistency, etc.
2. Windows backwards compatibility is excellent. And that legacy code is precisely a key impediment for Windows' substantial improvement, UI consistency, etc.

 

Quote

Apple: "Look! No charger = less packaging!! We're so Green??"

Everyone: * now has to go buy a charger with its own several boxes of packaging *

Apple Loyalists/Simps: "That's your fault for not already having this year's proprietary macbook charger"

Apple: "No phone, fancy box. $99."

On 7/14/2022 at 5:27 PM, UnbornTao said:

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by UnbornTao

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Didn't mention touch features.

 

Last time I tried a 2 in 1 was + 4 years ago. It wasn't the best experience although to be fair, the device was dirt cheap.

Imagine what a 2in1 with a macbook budget be like??

 

Quote

You're mistaking the current keyboards with the reportedly awful butterfly ones from 3-4 years ago. Now they're good again.

*Less awful

 

Quote

Portability.

Why would you want that?  To you can carry it to show pics to people like on a tablet?  lol, that would be awkward holding it in one hand.

 

Quote

I disagree. With the Mac you get much more. Besides, they last better and longer. Mac resell value is good. It is guaranteed that in 4 years people will still be buying them for a considerable percentage of the original cost. Cheap PCs get almost instantly devalued. 

I cba to sell my stuff anyway.  I'd rather keep it and not feel pressured to sell because of its price.

 

Quote

So, Macbook sounds like a better deal for the long term, depending on your needs.

It's a depreciating asset.  If you buy a cheaper laptop, save £1k, and invest that £1k in crypto, you'd end up with a laptop more capable than that macbook, and have £10k extra in cash.

 

Quote

Well, they aren't really about offering choice. 

"Choice is the devil" —Apple

 

Quote

Let's see what they do. Adding MacOS to iPads is another possible avenue. The Pro's are extremely powerful, but what's the use if iPadOS is a toy?

Yep.  Apple's executives have no idea what they're doing.

 

Quote

This is unnecessarily hyperbolic.

 

Quote

I mean, they aren't a dictatorship or something like that. 

IOS = no customization/choice/individuality.

Apple tells you what you want, tells you that you're ok with paying £1k for a phone, and tells you exactly how you want every part of the OS to look and feel.  "Apple knows best".

 

Quote

From my perspective, it seems quite green, to be honest. Besides, it was founded by a hippie. 

Billionaire hippies?  Yeah no, Green is just their branding.  Apple products are a status symbol for Oranges.  That's why people buy them.  Oranges want to be seen as successful Oranges.

 

Quote

And yet they were still massively popular and loved by many.

Old people love the idea of "simple".  And old people don't care about price as much and alone are enough to propel a brand forward.

Edited July 21, 2022 by thisintegrated

[kray]

Just get a mac dude