Trans women are women! Why? Love and Truth that's why

[bejapuskas]

@JoeVolcano @BenG @Razard86@Carl-Richard @Etherial Cat  I think most people here are just trying to be right at this point. I really seriously hate how much some people here prioritize being right even if they see their half assed pursuit is causing somebody to get trauma trigger. You are disgusting. Thank you to those who are actually being considerate and nuanced. 

I guess for some people bio essentalism works, because they just identify with it and their bio body is important to them. I am willing to accept people who accept bio essentalism as their personal philosophy of how they identify that they are not trying to impose on others, because thats totally fine. Identifying with body is fine, just be considerate and not be transphobic. Even the mods here highkey suck at being immature and not being able to admit their fault at saying hurtful shit.

As Etherial Cat said, you cannot hold bio essentalism as sacred and also see trans as valid. So stop, its transphobic, not welcome here.

[Carl-Richard]

@bejapuskas

Ok. What do you suggest we do from here (not just in this thread, but in general)? Because I don't see it as a feasible outcome that one moderator ends up banning half of the forum (judging by the opinions in this thread alone), including most of the moderators (judging by the opinions of us here and those who responded to your old thread about this exact issue in moderator discussions).

There is a definition problem here about what transphobia even is, and I think that me having to explain how a circular definition is not a definition is somehow indicative of this larger issue. As far as I'm concerned, there is one major point that we need to get straight:

Should warning points for transphobia be given on par with other phobias, i.e. something analogous to a charged statement that places said group in an overtly negative light and in a non-thoughtful manner (e.g. "women are less smarter than men — end of story"), or do we need to take any specialized measures for transphobia? I've been waiting to hear your opinion on this, because again, I have not yet seen a clear counterargument being presented towards the majority view in the aforementioned thread.

[Raptorsin7]

I am transphobic in the sense that I think the suffering of trans people goes beyond societies lack of acceptance. 

Like if I had a son with mental issues who was converted into believing that chopping off their penis is an adequate solution to their suffering I would feel i failed as a patent.

But I think a lot of arguments about treating trans people better or ways to reduce violence make sense.

I also dont understan why @bejapuskas is still a mod

Edited July 1, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, BenG said:

Honestly dude, I respect you despite how obnoxiously arrogant you came across to me earlier in this conversation.  Don't deny it. You don't need to respond to me after this if you don't want. I'm just going to tap out of the conversation after this post. You can have the victory!

The problem with literally any definition other than self-ID is that it imposes your standards onto other people and doesn't allow them to self-define. This is in the most literal sense, to quote you, "shoving ideas down people’s throats". Not you or anybody else has any right to force an identity onto another human being. 

I'm not telling you which definition you should adopt. I'm telling you which one I prefer to use for myself, inside my internal world. Again, that does NOT mean that I will purposely reject your preferred pronouns.

 

2 hours ago, BenG said:

Another thing is that any definition you could ever come up with is just self-ID with extra steps.

If it's not a circular definition, then no.

 

2 hours ago, BenG said:

Make a definition as seemingly real and valid as you want. Make it so seemingly real that you feel entitled to push it onto other people. It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day a definition is whatever you make it and doesn't ultimately tell you anything truthful about reality. Definitions are constructed for convenience, not truth.

My definition is merely convenient, and I'm not pushing it on anyone.

 

2 hours ago, BenG said:

"What a woman is"... There's no such thing as what a woman is other than however you choose to define what a woman is.

True, but don't expect me to use a circular definition.

 

2 hours ago, BenG said:

Definitions are fine but not at the expense of human rights. Stripping people of their identity is pretty bad. Fascist is not too strong of a word imo.

My internal definition of a word, which I don't push on anyone, and which I will easily concede in a social situation, is at the expense of human rights. Ok. 

 

2 hours ago, BenG said:

On a final note, I understand that I might be too deep into relativism, and this makes my position somewhat impractical. I have no problem with nuance but it's not clear to me that nuance is where you and Roy are coming from. It seems more like you're both disguising subtle transphobia as nuance. Of course, I'm open to being wrong, but beating your chest in front of me doesn't make you seem very convincing. 

You're entitled to your opinion. Just know that there are many opinions on what transphobia is, and that the self-ID definition is only one out of many, and that there exists trans inclusive philosophers who prefer the bio-essentialist definition. I think the issue here is how do we balance those views with our community's views, with the moderators' views, and with Leo's vision for the forum. On top of that, I think that completely shutting down critical discussion on a topic is unhealthy, but yes, we need nuance there as well (we can't have trolls who spam "hehehe trans women are not women, get lost losers").

[Carl-Richard]

18 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I am transphobic in the sense that I think the suffering of trans people goes beyond societies lack of acceptance. 

Like if I had a son with mental issues who was converted into believing that chopping off their penis is an adequate solution to their suffering I would feel i failed as a patent.

But I think a lot of arguments about treating trans people better or ways to reduce violence make sense.

I also dont understan why @bejapuskas is still a mod

Please be mindful of how you use charged words like "mental issues" and keep the discussion to the topic and don't make it more personal than it has to be.

[Jonsey]

Some trans women are some of the most beautiful women in the world. They are not afraid to be themselves and that takes bravery on their part. If I had a 10th of their courage I would be a more fulfilled human being than I am at the moment.

Keep up the fight brother. Keep dancing on the dance floor!!!

[Consept]

I think theres been some interesting talking points in this discussion as well the battle to 'win' the argument. @Etherial Cat's take on it is makes me think because it makes sense that the energies we all have are masculine and feminine and in the example of trans-women, in theory lets they have the same amount of feminine energy (however you quantify it), as a biological woman, then the only difference is the body they were born in. But then the only thing I would stop short at is calling them women, as you could for example have a strong feminine energy and still have a biological male body and even present as a woman. I'm not trans so obviously I cant speak for their experiences or how they feel but if you do get to the point where you have to get rid of (quite an important body part) wouldnt there be something to be said for accepting what you are? As in accepting that you are a trans-woman rather than trying to be a biological woman. It seems contradictory to want acceptance from others but then also want to change your body, this doesnt seem healthy mentally. 

Where I can relate and its by no means the same thing or even close, but growing up I always had a large chest which Ive just recently learnt is called Gynaecomastia, now it doesnt look too bad because Ive been weight training for years, but when i was younger and skinnier in my teen years it really stood out and I would be incredibly self conscious and had an ocd compulsion about it, I would hate when anyone noticed and i never took my top off even on holiday. Essentially it betrayed what i thought i was as a male, I basically had tities! So there was a point where i felt that the only way out was surgery, I even phoned up a place to see how much it would cost. But eventually I realised that the best way out was acceptance, this was me its a part of me and i have to find a way to accept it, it was not easy but i did manage to do it, now I rarely even think about it in a self conscious way and people even compliment me sometimes. 

All that to say, it seems with trans-people they want to be seen as exactly the same as biological-sexes and i just think fundamentally its not correct, they are different and that should be accepted by both themselves and the outside world. Thinking about it I think this is where a lot of the hate comes from, because youre asking people to buy into somewhat of a delusion. This comes to a head when you have womens sports because it just doesnt make sense for a trans person to be classified as a woman in this context. 

 

 

[bejapuskas]

@Carl-Richard  

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@bejapuskas

Ok. What do you suggest we do from here (not just in this thread, but in general)? Because I don't see it as a feasible outcome that one moderator ends up banning half of the forum (judging by the opinions in this thread alone), including most of the moderators (judging by the opinions of us here and those who responded to your old thread about this exact issue in moderator discussions).

There is a definition problem here about what transphobia even is, and I think that me having to explain how a circular definition is not a definition is somehow indicative of this larger issue. As far as I'm concerned, there is one major point that we need to get straight:

Should warning points for transphobia be given on par with other phobias, i.e. something analogous to a charged statement that places said group in an overtly negative light and in a non-thoughtful manner (e.g. "women are less smarter than men — end of story"), or do we need to take any specialized measures for transphobia? I've been waiting to hear your opinion on this, because again, I have not yet seen a clear counterargument being presented towards the majority view in the aforementioned thread.

I have not banned anyone. Usually other people here are more stricter, I just give points unless somebody is a spammer. I dont think I am unreasonably judgemental. If I called you all the wrong pronouns and gave you advice that does not apply to your gender, you would lose your shit really quickly. That happens to me everyday, just imagine that. You gotta go out in clothes youre uncomfortable wearing or you get beaten. Like guys wearing pink shirt and colorful skirt and makeup. Imagine what that would be like. Why are you undermining that so much for the sake of being right? I dont even think you are right.

Alright, thats a good observation there. We dont even know what transphobia is here. And I dont even think many of you can imagine what it is like to be trans. I can see how thats a big obstacle and I am sorry I assumed you know. Defining it as something that makes trans people potentially uncomfortable is really broad and subjective. What if we just mention that our gender is really personal and whatever ideas we have are specific to us, without claiming any objective universal truths? I have no problem if you identify with your biology. Just dont shove it down my throat. (Some people think trans people are shoving stuff, when its actually the other way around often times) Imagine I called you madam instead of sir and then got surprised why you react confused. if this kept happening to you all the time, if you had to explain yourself, usually against a majority that disagrees with you, you would lose patience with constantly explaining. Just dont deny any experiences, unless theyre dangerous, and be mindful that what you think may only apply to you and nobody else. If I created a thread saying that cis men are not men because they just assumed they are men because society told them they are and they did not find an authentic way into their manhood, unlike trans men, how would that feel? I dont think Its any different, but maybe you have some comments on that? I think if anyone thinks its any different, they are having a double standard there. If they claim also that all genders are equal.

I think points should be given. Or at least I will be giving them. I dont see how transphobia is any more understandable or more justifiable than racism or islamophobia for example. Or slut shaming, victim blaming, homophobia, aphobia (fear of asexuals), etc. I simply get a lot of hate in my life from my parents, friends, teachers etc. It is draining for me and I dont have the energy to explain things to strangers. I can put links to explanations into my bio that people can research, if they care. If they dont care about being accepting, they cannot be on this forum, because I am not willing to sacrifice creating a safe space here for myself and others.

I am not trying to change the whole world here. Ofc not. Some people think they are showing me a way out here. They are not, I am aware that I have to toughen up, but then this is just one online space that should be liberal according to its guidelines, therefore I feel like I can enforce these guidelines, if somebody calls me mentally ill, invalid, dangerous, deviant impure or whatever. Or who is closeminded and unable to reflect. I think it is worth it to fight for a more diverse and accepting actualized.org forum, for Gods sake, we preach love and nonduality and truth here. I am seeking truth about myself every day by having this experience. This is not some impossible goal, theres like just a couple of you guys, if you all stop denying my validity, if you just let me live my life and stop trying to impose your views down my throat, I will be chill, its not hard.

 

[bejapuskas]

@Etherial Cat Exactly, I am aware I am different from you all and we have different experiences. I just dont want to be invalidated and reminded of different painful experiences like this. For me, this is the expression of my true self. If I go to a males shop for clothes, I will literally cry because I dont like anything there usually. I dont need you to understand what exactly I am, I also dont understand what exactly I am, it is hard. Just respect that I and others have gone through some pain related to this and they dont wanna be denied that and invalidated. We dont need anyone to be attracted to us if they dont like our genitalia, as long as they respect us as people.

[Consept]

2 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

And I don't think they attempt to pass as biologically female, because the legitimacy of biology to define gender is often highly challenged. It seems to be more a fantasy cis-gender people hold towards trans people.

Im not saying they attempt to pass themselves off as biologically female (some might but its probably a minority), but the statement of saying trans-women are women would need some more nuance around it (as you are attempting to add) as people just seeing that statement will probably go to the idea that trans-women are claiming they biological women. I would also say there a section of trans women or social justice warriors they will vehemently claim that there is no difference between trans-women and real women and that straight men should have no problem dating them and also lesbiens should have no problem with dating, which is very imposing and has caused problems. Again its probably a minority but im just pointing out the extreme view for context. 

 

7 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

In that way there are objective differences, and I don't think they need to be cancelled or sanitized. There is just no need to hide it.

Definitely shouldnt be cancelled or anything like that or even have to hide. I think where the friction stems from is people feeling like they are being forced to see the world from a trans pov which includes the view that trans-women are women without any context. I actually agree with you that trans-women can be put into a category of women, this would actually solve a lot of problems with sports etc and i think its a more honest and real view. Ultimately trans people want to be accepted and there humanity seen for what it is and of course everyone can empathise with that, however to bend categories and not recognise that there is some difference is asking for a deluded view, as in a reality that we dont agree on, to be integrated into the public consciousness and i think that is a lot to ask. Just for clarity im specifically talking about the view of trans-women being the same as biological women with natural conclusion that trans-women should compete with biological women in sports. 

Heres an example of what im talking about in which the singer Ginuwine was labelled trans-phobic for saying he wouldnt date a trans-woman, he received a lot of backlash for this view -

 

[Consept]

9 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

@Etherial Cat Exactly, I am aware I am different from you all and we have different experiences. I just dont want to be invalidated and reminded of different painful experiences like this. For me, this is the expression of my true self. If I go to a males shop for clothes, I will literally cry because I dont like anything there usually. I dont need you to understand what exactly I am, I also dont understand what exactly I am, it is hard. Just respect that I and others have gone through some pain related to this and they dont wanna be denied that and invalidated. We dont need anyone to be attracted to us if they dont like our genitalia, as long as they respect us as people.

Sorry for the pain youve experienced my friend 

[Bobby_2021]

49 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

If I go to a males shop for clothes, I will literally cry because I dont like anything there usually.

This is the peak if what a privilege looks like.

You live in one of the poshest counties of the world, which benifited from the systemic oppression of the rest of the world,  and you are "traumatized" because you couldn't find a clothing you like.

Why should anyone even listen to you lecturing about what even privilege or oppression looks like? 

I have seen kids cry with tears of joy when they got second hand shirts to wear as school uniforms. 

Come to India bro. See how we live.

Even if we don't eat, we are happy. You don't have any real problems. 

[Consept]

3 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Perhaps check out what Natalie Wynn (a.k.a Contrapoints) has to say.  Have you ever had a look at her youtube channel? She's really good.

I have seen a couple of her videos actually which were very thought provoking and well laid out, I havent seen this one but will check it out. 

 

4 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

The problem is that how cis folks interpret wrongly that concept it is not in a trans person's hand. Just like as a POC you know its mostly not your problem if other people are racist and will twist a quote like Black lives matters as problematic. You know, the All live matters type.I 

This is somewhat true, although I believe 'Black Lives matter *too*' probably wouldve shut down a few of the all lives matter crew and made a bit more sense in terms of what was trying to be conveyed. Having said that 'trans-women are real women' plays out in real world scenarios such as with sports, which then lead people to think that there isnt context to the argument and take it at face value, I think a lot of people would accept the statement if there wasnt this fight for inclusion in womens sports. Regardless if there are some trans people that transitioned early and they have no advantage, there will still be some that didnt and will also claim that they should be included, which could really damage womens sports as a category, Im not saying its a massive problem but I think without clear boundaries it does spoil the integrity of the sport category. 

11 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

I'm actually quite certain most men would be attracted to her. The biggest turn off being how they'd feel about themselves for being with a woman who has been once a boy. It's the whole 'are trap gay?' problematic.

Yes I agree she is attractive and it is hard to even know she was born male, I would probably be in the camp of not wanting to date her if i knew. Although im aware this is probably not fair, my generation and those previous and probably a lot of the current generation, will have a problem dating due to how we were brought up and the definition of what a straight man should be. There are as i said also lesbiens that wouldnt be down with that so im not sure the precise reasoning. The other aspect is having biological kids and obviously the genetalia situation. Im sure there are a lot of guys that dont have any qualms about it as well and i think this will also increase in future generations. But i think trans people have to understand that it is a big jump for hetero men that have grown up in a certain way, right or wrong. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Consept

5 minutes ago, Consept said:

I have seen a couple of her videos actually which were very thought provoking and well laid out, I havent seen this one but will check it out. 

 

This is somewhat true, although I believe 'Black Lives matter *too*' probably wouldve shut down a few of the all lives matter crew and made a bit more sense in terms of what was trying to be conveyed. Having said that 'trans-women are real women' plays out in real world scenarios such as with sports, which then lead people to think that there isnt context to the argument and take it at face value, I think a lot of people would accept the statement if there wasnt this fight for inclusion in womens sports. Regardless if there are some trans people that transitioned early and they have no advantage, there will still be some that didnt and will also claim that they should be included, which could really damage womens sports as a category, Im not saying its a massive problem but I think without clear boundaries it does spoil the integrity of the sport category. 

Yes I agree she is attractive and it is hard to even know she was born male, I would probably be in the camp of not wanting to date her if i knew. Although im aware this is probably not fair, my generation and those previous and probably a lot of the current generation, will have a problem dating due to how we were brought up and the definition of what a straight man should be. There are as i said also lesbiens that wouldnt be down with that so im not sure the precise reasoning. The other aspect is having biological kids and obviously the genetalia situation. Im sure there are a lot of guys that dont have any qualms about it as well and i think this will also increase in future generations. But i think trans people have to understand that it is a big jump for hetero men that have grown up in a certain way, right or wrong. 

 

   Ok, not just you but users here also, can we all agree that most people are struggling to define transgender from their own standards, and miss that actually transgender is really about transcendence of one's own sexuality, fundamentally speaking?

   Also, are we talking about very specific points about how society handles transgendered people so far?

   I'd date for the experience.

[Consept]

23 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Ok, not just you but users here also, can we all agree that most people are struggling to define transgender from their own standards, and miss that actually transgender is really about transcendence of one's own sexuality, fundamentally speaking?

Im not sure it is a transcendence of ones own sexuality, i might have misunderstood what youre saying, but a transcendence of ones sexuality would end up at no sexuality. For example if you said someone transcended their 'self' in a spiritual way, that would be the realisation that there is no self. However with trans people they are essentially changing from one sex to another. Non-binary might be closer to what my understanding of what you said is. 

 

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

 Also, are we talking about very specific points about how society handles transgendered people so far?

I mean i guess thats where the issues pop up, the sports thing and a couple other issues are the only things that really cause friction with trans people and my take on it is this just comes about from the belief that trans women are exactly the same as biological women. All in all i have no problems with trans people and am not saying theres a fundamental problem with it, i can also empathise with their situation. 

 

30 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

I'd date for the experience.

It probably wouldnt be much different, you should give it a try, im too conditioned to try myself

[Consept]

Also i think the other point of contention is whether or not young kids should be able to gender themselves and start taking puberty blockers other treatments at such a young age. There have been some issues with de-transitioning, which must be a terrible thing to go through or a therapist and those around the child really encouraging them to go ahead with it when it may just be a phase or theyre not sure how they feel. I think that is a very controversial area because on one hand it could be almost child abuse but on the other it could really help if the child does really know and will stay trans forever. I aint got the answers man!

[Loba]

Wow, this thread... so this forum is okay with the threat of abuse of power if they don't conform to another person's views, without even being given the option of discourse on the matter and that's just perfectly okay?  That anyone who disagrees is "just against me" and there's no wiggle room?  See, that's messed up, because we all have our problems with life and things to overcome and we can't just bring our personal struggles into the equation and try to shove them down other people's throats because we "feel bad".  That's not acceptable, and I expect better from this moderation team.  If you can't put your personal struggles aside to view things from an objective standpoint, then you shouldn't be in a position of power over anyone.  That is abusive.

[AtheisticNonduality]

The only reasonable criticism of "transgenderism" I can see is that there is a serious difference between a woman that was raised as a girl in a society that treats her a certain way and who's gone through all the biological experiences of being women like menstruation and living in a female body that is at risk of objectification and, on the other hand, a trans woman that would be raised as a male in a society some might view as still male-dominated, would have all of the experiences of a male, all the biology of a male, and then have a decision to adopt certain feminine traits (like stereotypical female appearance and feminine behavior and identification with being a woman). This could be seen as something completely different and detached from the biological women to the point where it has to be its own category.

And then on the other hand, because society is moving toward greater freedom, why couldn't someone be a woman if they wanted to be, or if they really were on a mental or "spiritual" level? Any reduction of that to mental illness or lack of self-acceptance is ignorant to the point of stupidity. Being that free-minded is not mental illness; it's hyper-sanity. It's not lack of self-acceptance; it's complete self-acceptance to where they have to be themselves even in a society that would not approve. Something like self-definition to the degree of having "the wrong chromosomes" while still becoming and acting as a woman is a pure level of independent thought, in some way.

[Zeroguy]

Question is simple .Trans women are women.

Answer is also simple : no they are not.

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is the peak if what a privilege looks like.

You live in one of the poshest counties of the world, which benifited from the systemic oppression of the rest of the world,  and you are "traumatized" because you couldn't find a clothing you like.

Why should anyone even listen to you lecturing about what even privilege or oppression looks like? 

I have seen kids cry with tears of joy when they got second hand shirts to wear as school uniforms. 

Come to India bro. See how we live.

Even if we don't eat, we are happy. You don't have any real problems. 

• Privilege and oppression are relative to society.
• If some society has low living standards, then that society is bad relative to a society that has high living standards.
• Happiness is not an argument here because it's subjective, and more complicated than just food or clothing.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Gesundheit2