Can knowledge ever be in relationship with Truth, Universe, God?

[Bird Larry]

This question aches my brain. 

 

How does a Krishnamurti, an OSHO, a Jesus, a Buddha, a Chuang Tzu, a Pythagoras cultivate knowledge.

Afterall, even if they continually denigrate "knowledge" they themselves had knowledge. Often, they were great intellectuals themselves. They weren't hypocrites. What is their true attitude with knowledge?.

What is knowledge.

Can knowledge ever be in service of Truth. Or is it forever an enemy. You know how the bible describes it, an apple from the tree of knowledge.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Bird Larry

[Aaron p]

This is a brilliant question, really really good. In fact, it's such a good question that just by asking it I can tell that your a real one. Because this question is inevitable for a true seeker to stumble across. And I have the perfect analogy. As far as I'm aware...when Leo and other powerful teachers talk about the inability for knowledge to give you an actual experience with God can be compared to how gaining knowledge *about* a girl isn't the same as knowing her by having hardcore sex with her. It's a different depth of knowing. It's not learned information, it's a spontaneous explosion of actuality. 

In the nondual sense now, you can get theoretical directions and good concepts (which are required) but it's always key to remember that it's not information that is real awakening, it's a spontaneous explosion of actuality. Of course the mind doesn't know how to do that, because it's not the one doing it. It's more like letting go of doing it. Like entering a trance. It's all about Identity. Instead of trying to know something, directly identify who or what it is that is knowing in the first place and don't resist. Eventually it should feel like a trance as opposed to a school class...a shift in energy and perception like a trip. Knowledge isn't bad. Having more knowledge isn't bad. Instead of trying to get rid of knowledge (not needed) allow infinitely more knowledge to pour into your mind and just allow it to become translucent and see through it. Knowledge and theory will still be highly advantageous even after enlightenment. The world in which we live may not be physical but it has rules and laws at this point in time. It's not a sin to remember how this world works and get better at working with it.)

Another phenomenon that I experience and I suspect Leo and others experience is this weird mind palace effect. I've no doubt it comes with the ever increasing visualisation oriented "figuring out" of reality style that I feel comes with deeper awareness. Leo's said before that he can't remember the majority of the stuff he teaches us...this is a cool phenomenon. He is speaking from direct spirit. Looking at the vast depths of Leo's knowledge, or some knowledge of my own you would think "how the fuck does a person remember this" but it's not exactly remembered. It's more like instead of putting information in your mind, your mastering your awareness of the systematic structure of the mind itself and speaking without thinking...it's such a super power because it literally feels like someone is sitting beside you at all times giving you all the information you need to be successful in every single situation. It feels like it's not even me typing this right now. 

1 John 2:27 Bible "But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know..."

Edited June 25, 2022 by Aaron p

[Aaron p]

Also check it out. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil (the tree of egoic birth)...and the birth of dualistic language from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And Adams apple lodged in our throats ever since, giving us language

Edited June 25, 2022 by Aaron p

[ZzzleepingBear]

5 hours ago, Bird Larry said:

This question aches my brain. 

 

How does a Krishnamurti, an OSHO, a Jesus, a Buddha, a Chuang Tzu, a Pythagoras cultivate knowledge.

Afterall, even if they continually denigrate "knowledge" they themselves had knowledge. Often, they were great intellectuals themselves. They weren't hypocrites. What is their true attitude with knowledge?.

What is knowledge.

Can knowledge ever be in service of Truth. Or is it forever an enemy. You know how the bible describes it, an apple from the tree of knowledge.

The forbiden fruit of the tree of knowledge. Is imo a tale told inorder to not conflate the truth with knowledge. Since knowledge can be used in oppostion to truth by it's own merit. Knowledge is power. While truth is love of goodness. So eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Would be equal to the direct access to power for the sake of power. The garden of eden already provide what is good and true, but that also include the ability to choose otherwise. Hence the forbiden fruits availability despite it's claimed forbiddenness. Eating it's fruit is a journey into paradoxes that the ultimate goodness of choice provides. A.k.a consequences of actions.

[gettoefl]

here's the path

belief -> knowledge -> experience -> existence

contemplate this

[Leo Gura]

Here you'll want to distinguish relative truths vs absolute truth. Human knowledge is relative truth.

[axiom]

Knowledge is an illusion caused by the ability of imagination to extend its complexity infinitely in any direction you look.

[Oeaohoo]

@Bird Larry None of the people you mentioned denigrate knowledge except as a possible hindrance for certain people and at a certain point on the spiritual path. For example, OSHO was probably confronted with a lot of mediocre intellectuals who had a merely bookish knowledge. Buddha was confronted with Brahmans who could recite the Vedas but didn’t know their true Self. This kind of knowledge is stagnant and dead. However, there is another kind of knowledge: why else did all of these people spend most of their time speaking to people? What else is Gnosis? Jnana Yoga is literally “the path of knowledge”! One translation of Buddha is: “One who Knows”.

[Nilsi]

On 6/25/2022 at 7:21 AM, Bird Larry said:

This question aches my brain. 

 

How does a Krishnamurti, an OSHO, a Jesus, a Buddha, a Chuang Tzu, a Pythagoras cultivate knowledge.

Afterall, even if they continually denigrate "knowledge" they themselves had knowledge. Often, they were great intellectuals themselves. They weren't hypocrites. What is their true attitude with knowledge?.

What is knowledge.

Can knowledge ever be in service of Truth. Or is it forever an enemy. You know how the bible describes it, an apple from the tree of knowledge.

I feel more and more strongly about general systems theory as the best way to approximate existential dynamics in a relatively precise way. At a certain level this framework will break of course but I think it's the best we've got in terms of language.

Knowledge is an emergent property of being, just as say behavior is an emergent property of an organism. Is that behavior the organism? No. Is it in service of it? Yes. Can you ever know the organism through its behavior? No, you can know how it behaves in a certain situation in which you happen to look at it. Is there different degrees of quality to behavior? Yes, I can inspire millions of people by delivering a great speech to them or I can sit on my couch on government support and watch reality tv while i smoke pack after pack of cigarettes.

In short, when you are being, there will still emerge knowledge from you once your being emanates a certain threshold of subtleness. 

Obligatory "I don't know this" but it produces a rather clear dynamic model in my mind which really is the best we can do in communication anyway. You have to experience deep states of being that are beyond knowing and you will see this emergence happening as you come back into the more gross realms of existence.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Nilsi