How to not turn this into dogma?

[Ayham]

as the title says, I find that from consuming so much stuff about spirituality, I auto reject other possibilities than spirituality, and one of my values is open mindedness.

it is like a have taken a position, a stance that spirituality is true, and I do not want that.

I have contemplated this question, and what I came up with is to basically consume stuff opposed to spirituality, taking different perspectives (stage yellow approach), from example: watching a Christian arguing his case against spirituality, and actually being open minded to that is challenging, so that is what I will do, I will watch other stuff and be openminded about it.

I think there is also a danger with this forum if you spend most of your time here, you are in a community of people with similar ideas, that makes your ideas not challenged, but strengthened.

so I would like to see what everyone thinks, how do you not turn this into dogma?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Ayham

[Gesundheit2]

@Ayham It's not exactly the best place to ask this kind of question, cuz most people here are actually dogmatic, and they don't know that they are. This forum is more like an echo-chamber than a free-thought forum, cuz it's intended to be this way. It should be renamed to Actualized School instead of forum. This thread is one more proof for what I'm saying, cuz right now it has over 30 views and 0 replies since 8 hours, while the topics that serve to reinforce the predominant beliefs get the most attention and answers. There are other proofs that I have collected from my experience over the years with this forum, and so I know for sure that it's not gonna offer much insight for this particular discussion.

Anyway, to give a more helpful answer, I wouldn't worry too much about this for now. It's pretty much normal to experience a certain level of attachment to certain thoughts for a certain period of time. Allow that to happen, and don't overthink or resist it, as long as you're aware. Just keep on doing what you've been doing, and you'll be fine. The Ayham of today is not the same as the Ayham of yesterday. And the Ayham of tomorrow will not be the same as either of them. What you've seen cannot be unseen, so you must keep moving forwards/upwards, cuz you don't really have a better choice. And just like you've transcended the religious and materialistic perspectives before, you will transcend this spiritual perspective too. It will not be removed from your life, but rather simply become an integrated part of it. You'll add this new awareness to your existing awareness, and you'll reach a new/higher level. Just like we transcend religion but manage to keep the discipline and like we transcend materialism but still go to work, we transcend spirituality and still meditate and keep an open-mind.

 

[Carl-Richard]

Playing devil's advocate can be useful, but it has a trap of insincerity to it. The odds are that there is something in spirituality that deeply resonates with you, but you just need to find out exactly what that is so you can parse out what you consider to be dogma. Read some of the different perspectives within Psychology of Religion and see how they define and understand spirituality: William James, Sigmund Freud, Abraham Maslow, Gordon Allport and Kenneth Pargament to name a few.

[Ayham]

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There are other proofs that I have collected from my experience over the years with this forum, and so I know for sure that it's not gonna offer much insight for this particular discussion.

well, that seems true, I think turning inwards is the best solution, relying on spiritual teachers to give answers is probably the reason this happened.

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Anyway, to give a more helpful answer, I wouldn't worry too much about this for now.

Right, Spiral dynamics!

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Allow that to happen, and don't overthink or resist it, as long as you're aware.

this reminds me of the episode "awareness alone is curative" and that technique works in my experience, cool, I like this.

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And just like you've transcended the religious and materialistic perspectives before, you will transcend this spiritual perspective too. It will not be removed from your life, but rather simply become an integrated part of it. You'll add this new awareness to your existing awareness, and you'll reach a new/higher level. Just like we transcend religion but manage to keep the discipline and like we transcend materialism but still go to work, we transcend spirituality and still meditate and keep an open-mind.

yo I like this analogy.

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I have not seen that episode, but I will do something else, instead of watching it from Leo, I will go research the thing from another source, I consumed too much Leo and I trust what he says too much.

Thank you very much for your informative answer sir.

so. to conclude, I think, for me this forum has been unhealthy, and over relying on Leo too, so, what I will do right now is bookmark my journal on this forum, and open only the journal, this forum is not much different from social media, at least for me.

and Leo too, I watched the videos on the start here section, and I think that is enough, I am doing the practices, but still, I think books and contemplation are enough for theory right now, so I will do a theory detox, then at some point I might return, but it will be with lots of sources instead, which was what I used to do until Leo came, since his videos are very holistic they trick you to think you do not need other sources.

[Ayham]

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Playing devil's advocate can be useful, but it has a trap of insincerity to it. The odds are that there is something in spirituality that deeply resonates with you, but you just need to find out exactly what that is so you can parse out what you consider to be dogma. Read some of the different perspectives within Psychology of Religion and see how they define and understand spirituality: William James, Sigmund Freud, Abraham Maslow, Gordon Allport and Kenneth Pargament to name a few

well I remember getting into new age spirituality when I was 12, but I used to not go deep because I was Muslim and I thought there is something "haram" I am doing,  so it probably does resonate with me.

and hey! these are some cool names, I barely know two names, I am saving these names to my commonplace book, will research them. thanks.

 

[sholomar]

Expose yourself to lots of different information and perspectives. You are the content of what you consume. Garbage inputs = garbage outputs. Don't fall into the trap of getting sucked into political forums and debating people like I have.  Don't get stuck in echo chamber like perspectives on subjects. Always try to see things from someone else's point of view. Keep an open mind. Try not to judge others for their perspective or the perception they are "sheep" who are not self aware, or asleep at the wheel. Resist the need to want to fix everything. People walk their own path and learn at their own pace. They don't need you to save them, unless they ask for advice.

A lot of people get caught into the trap of looking at what they perceive to be the "state of the world" to be and it depresses them. This is counter productive, because our species has always been kind of a mess. It's not really any worse today. Catastrophizing about the "state of the world" is the number one mistake I see people make here, they want to change everyone to adopt their world view, and that is simply not going to happen. They consume too much media, which often likes to feed "dirty laundry" to people, and are unable to see the good in the world. This tends to be toxic. I personally disagree that to be into personal growth, you need to be out there as some crusader saving the planet from perceived problems.  Who's to say what you are fighting for is really a problem? The laws of nature are fairly amoral. That duality of this simulation is what makes this reality a good "learning tool"... you can't appreciate the "good" without the "bad." In fact seeing something as "bad" at all is a value judgment. Sometimes the person judging is missing the big picture perspective in my opinion. They can't see the forest through the trees.

Seek to undo karmic entanglements. Seek to roll with the punches, ride with the waves, and resist "what is" as little as you can. Worry about what you can change, not what you can't. Seek to integrate and understand all levels of spiral dynamics, and not focus on a single stage, seeing other stages as inferior. Don't feel like you have to be a saint. Nobody is perfect. Accept we are human in this particular simulation, and that makes us flawed by definition, with animal instincts, urges, drives, and a still rather primitive limbic system.

Edited June 24, 2022 by sholomar

[gettoefl]

put things in your own words, forget everything you have learned and become someone who knows nothing

[Thought Art]

@Ayham Literally realize you know basically nothing. Then, learn from as many teachers, teachings and perspectives as possible.

Be well read, meditate, try different spiritual practices, contemplate and think for yourself. Question everything and everyone.

Embrace not knowing.

If you don't know something. Say, I don't know.

Chances are if you are being dogmatic, your feeling competitive, you want to be right and others wrong.

Instead, open yourself up to the full possibility of the Tao.

Consider, if you like esoteric shit... Reading The 'Tao Te Ching'  by Lao Tzu.

Or, a book like "There is a way out" or a book like "Pathways to Perfect living" or "The Mystic Path to Cosmic Power" by Vernon Howard.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Thought Art

[Ayham]

@sholomar I get your point, thankfully I am not interested in crusading nor politics.

and yeah I do need lots of perspectives, for now I need an information detox because I have been consuming too much, so only books and contemplation right now.

@gettoefl do you mean Peter Ralston`s not knowing? this seems easier said than done.

@Thought Artyo, this is super solid advice, I am currently doing meditation, reading, healthy food and gym, I also do contemplation when I feel I need it.

I like the thing about saying I don`t know, it is hard, it is definitely threatening to the ego, good.

I think i would like the tao te ching since i like the art of war which is the same vibe (ancient asian wisdom)

[gettoefl]

@Ayham am not big on Ralston but what i mean is become child like innocent sincere wondering ... imagine that you are a new person every day

[Ayham]

ah i see, meditation does help with this in my experience, thanks!

[Aaron p]

You don't need to worry about having a stance or taking the stance of no stance. Any dedication to anything other than direct experience whatever that is, isn't advantageous for awakening. There's nothing wrong with dogma if you simply prioritise direct experience. You can become dogmatic about not being dogmatic, then you can also become dogmatic about not falling into the trap of becoming dogmatic about not becoming dogmatic. The key is relaxing into direct experience and realising that there is safety with direct experience but also recognising that there is a place for articulated analysis and conceptual understanding in the right formats. Really there's nothing wrong with anything, just always prioritise whatever is proven in direct experience 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Aaron p

[gettoefl]

note that when you spell dogma backwards you get

am god

what you going to choose? universe is laughing here

[Thought Art]

The Tao te Ching seems to have versus on deconstructing your mind to realize the Tao or ultimate truth. A lot of it is about not building a world view but deconstructing it. 
 

become the uncarved block of wood

Edited June 26, 2022 by Thought Art

[Ayham]

@Aaron p traps everywhere! lol great point, thanks sir.

@gettoeflyo wtf how did I not notice this lol

@Thought Artthis is exactlyy what i am looking for! will add it to my book list. thanks