My Metaphysical Map

[StarStruck]

I always thought raising our value system and raising out consciousness (metaphysics) was the same thing.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Tyler Robinson said:

How do you differentiate the two? 

Growing up = biopsychosocial growth (personal; cognitive-emotional + sociocultural).
Waking up = spiritual growth (transpersonal).

The distinction was made because of the observation that spirituality has existed since the dawn of mankind in all kinds of "backwards" cultures (purple, red, blue etc.) and also to make sense of the countless of contemporary guru scandals. It counters the New Age myth that we can solve all global issues by simply preaching the gospel of transpersonal states of consciousness.

[Tyler Robinson]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Waking up = spiritual growth (transpersonal growth).

Even that is a part of growth. So essentially no difference. You simply made a distinction. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Values influence metaphysical frameworks.

True. Values influence thinking and behavior, and they can tell you which metaphysical frameworks certain types of people are attracted to, but it doesn't tell you as much about what the specific frameworks are saying and how they differ from each other.

 

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Spiraldynamics and AQAL is not just about value systems but also about consciousness(metaphysics) itself.

Metaphysics is about what reality is at a fundamental level. It's not equal to "consciousness" (whichever definition you want to use). For example, you can have a metaphysics which outright denies the existence of phenomenal consciousness as an ontological category (e.g. eliminative materialism and illusionism).

 

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

I always thought raising our value system and raising out consciousness (metaphysics) was the same thing.

When you talk about "raising consciousness", you're probably talking about expanding one's circle of concern. Such a definition of consciousness could include all types of vertical development (both personal and transpersonal), but it's a rather amorphous concept.

 

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

But that is just my limited understanding. Personally I still don't understand why Ken Wilber made a seperate model from SpiralDynamics. It is almost the same.

Wilber studied many developmental stage theories outside of SD, and he only encountered Graves later in his work. You can take a look at Robert Kegan's six evolutionary balances and the correlates to similar theories to get an idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kegan#the_evolving_self

 

[Carl-Richard]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

Even that is a part of growth. So essentially no difference. You simply made a distinction. 

Wilber made that distinction. How would you explain what lead to the abolition of slavery?

[Tyler Robinson]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Wilber made that distinction. How would you explain what lead to the abolition of slavery?

A revolution? 

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Tyler Robinson said:

A revolution? 

A revolution of spiritual awakening or a revolution of values?

[Tyler Robinson]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

A revolution of spiritual awakening or a revolution of values?

Both. That's why no difference. When you have a spiritual awakening, your awareness and embodiment of values is going to change. It's like metamorphosis. The changes from an egg to a tadpole to an adult frog. This maturation which is accompanies by simultaneous changes in character, behavior and values. 

It's not just the awakening of the spirit and since the spirit is very much connected with each part of our body, the mind, the intellect, the conscience, the heart. A change in the spirit is like changing who runs this website. 

If we replace Leo Gura here with Eckhart Tolle or Matt Kahn, you would radically different values being followed here. It would completely alter the look and interaction of this place. 

You cannot have spiritual awakening without it simultaneously impacting your awareness, your virtues, values and your conscience. 

That's why waking up is growing up. 

In fact waking up is the main way of growing up.

Although this growing up is still possible without the need for a spiritual awakening, an exception for this happens when you have an extraordinarily great bringing up, which is rare but it leads to wholesome individuals who wouldn't need a ton of spiritual work because they have already been trained to understand and follow high consciousness. 

That's why low consciousness is generally seen in Situations where the bringing up has been awful, for example a child who grows to be a racist because their father fed them with racist opinions ever since they were kid. This is great example to show you that even in the most modernist society that prides on spiritual progress, you could still have people who would support slavery and bring back the 1930s. In fact there are YouTubers who do this. 

You also see this with the recent Roe v wade situation, almost clocking back to the 1950s.

That's why spiritual progress is not without change of conscience. 

Any spiritual progress or Awakening without change in values is fake and shallow and not a part of growing up. 

All there is, is to grow. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

26 minutes ago, Tyler Robinson said:

When you have a spiritual awakening, your awareness and embodiment of values is going to change.

I'm not contesting that. I'm saying that despite the blessings of the enlightened saints and sages that created the world's religions, pre-modern society did not abolish slavery. The Age of Enlightenment is considered to be the spiritual Dark Ages, but despite that, we abolished slavery.

[Tyler Robinson]

42 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm not contesting that. I'm saying that despite the blessings of the enlightened saints and sages that created the world's religions, pre-modern society did not abolish slavery. The Age of Enlightenment is considered to be the spiritual Dark Ages, but despite that, we abolished slavery.

Here you're mixing spirituality with religion. Do you really think that people who started religion did it with the best intentions? How do you know they weren't cult leaders of their time? 

Also if you're talking about the general populace, how many people truly care to follow the principles of their religious leaders. 

We wouldn't have slavery in the first place if Christians behaved like Christ? 

The only way society finds awakening and liberation is when people's collective consciousness is forced to become aware of their Malice. For example, slavery would have  always existed if black people hadn't struggled so hard to be free of it. 

You don't need religion or religious leaders to bring change. You only need the strengths of a majority of people. And the determination to face and fight. 

In fact most important changes that took place in society did not happen through the blood of the spiritual scholars, it happened because of wars that were fought, wars that were lost in order for values to triumph. It's whimsical that the things we detest the most are the same things that actually paved the way to human psychological and spiritual development. 

No, I'm not condoning wars. But simply stating their role in human development. It's a process of evolution. 

It's ironic if you think spirituality leads to enlightenment of the masses. 

You have made a mistake. 

Spirituality leads to enlightenment of a person, not enlightenment of the masses. A person can be stage Turquoise and the masses can still be at stage Blue. 

And mistaking religion for spirituality and conflating the two  is the oldest mistake. 

Most religions actually contributed to a lot of mayhem over religious hegemony. 

Enlightenment doesn't happen on a mass level, it rarely ever does. But social change(if you consider this to be enlightenment) can happen on a mass level. 

Yet social change is not exempt from regression. As you can witness this for yourself, in America democracy is facing a huge threat. 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Tyler Robinson

[Carl-Richard]

@Tyler Robinson Yes, I do believe that more people became spiritually mature when more people were seriously studying the teachings of the Vedas, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad etc. and it held center stage in the collective consciousness. Everything you know about nonduality today has been known for thousands of years, arguably for all of human history.