MBTI x Spiral Dynamics

[thisintegrated]

2 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

You put Martin at Green but Tolkien at Orange? Game of Thrones - or, A Song of Ice and Fire… - was an absolute encapsulation of Stage Orange. Tolkien, on the other hand, was much more Blue than Orange. After all, the world that he created was largely a revival of pre-Christian mythology portrayed through the lens of his Roman Catholic faith, drawing from texts like the Finnish Kalevala and the Nordic Eddas.

I recently described Shakespeare elsewhere on here: I would say that Shakespeare is early Orange, with a lot of Blue (inspiration from late medieval literature and even pagan morality) hanging over, and some anticipations of Green (love of perspective, fetishism of human relationships, relativism).

Sure GoT is very Orange (+ Red), but his understanding of reality/people/society is far above average.  idk much about his personality so I could be wrong, but he should be around Green.

Tolkien's more "conventional" in his writing that Martin, but still an exceptionally deep thinker, so likely above Blue.

 

3 hours ago, Nilsi said:

I would say Daniel Schmachtenberger is a good example of a turquoise INTJ.

Jeeeezus.. wtf.. I think he actually might be.  Rare AF.

Will have to listen to him a bit longer, but he's at least upper Yellow.

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yeah holy shit the Te on that dude.

Te and Ni not only strong, but really healthy too.

[Oeaohoo]

18 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Tolkien's more "conventional" in his writing that Martin, but still an exceptionally deep thinker, so likely above Blue.

None of the values he espouses in his mythology are Orange and none of his positive characters are Orange. Everything in Tolkien is tradition and characters fulfilling their super-ordained and pre-destined role. The Ring of Power is basically Orange materialism. There are many exceptionally deep stage Blue thinkers; much more than at stage Orange! Makes you wonder…

All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. 

- said no Stage Orange person!

 

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, Oeaohoo said:

None of the values he espouses in his mythology are Orange and none of his positive characters are Orange.

Orange is just a level of awareness.  Orange values are stereotypes, like how "all INTJs wear black and like programming" is a stereotype.  May be accurate for the most part, but not completely.  If he grew up in a very Blue culture he's likely to have a Blue personality, and any worldbuilding will be based on Blue ideas about society from the real world.

 

1 minute ago, Oeaohoo said:

Everything in Tolkien is tradition and characters fulfilling their super-ordained and pre-destined role.

And also about growth, learning from experience, overcoming weakness/temptation, adventure, leaving behind a life of safety/stability, etc.

 

1 minute ago, Oeaohoo said:

The Ring of Power is basically Orange materialism.

So you think he's Orange?

[Artsu]

I have to break my 777 post count for this thread.

Typology, both horizontal and vertical, are my areas of expertise.

-

If you're talking about spiral dynamics as a political typology then I have no idea. But if you're talking about spiral dynamics for its legitimate vertical typology component, then the answer is this:

Vertical and horizontal typology don't really correlate. They influence each other, so an INFJ turquoise will look very different to an ESTJ turquoise, but any correlation is slight in terms of which types are at which levels.

 

More to come.

[Artsu]

I just looked at the stereotypes that spiral dynamics holds, which is not real vertical typology by the way, and it divides up as follows:

 

Red: Se

Blue: Si

Orange: Te

Green: Fe

Yellow: Ne+Ti

Turquoise: Ne+Fi

I'm not sure where Ni fits in. I'll come back to that later.

 

That means that spiral dynamics is a typist model that posits a superiority as in:

N>F>T>S and Ji>Je.

 

Scrap this model and pick a real vertical typology model.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Artsu

[Artsu]

If there IS a correlation between horizontal and vertical typology, I would say that Ne types are more likely to be at a higher level, so there is SOME truth to spiral dynamics.

-

I've developed my own vertical typology model, similar to Pod'lair's elevator of enlightenment.

I will make a thread about it soon.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Artsu

[Oeaohoo]

10 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

And also about growth, learning from experience, overcoming weakness/temptation, adventure, leaving behind a life of safety/stability, etc.

There are plenty of Blue stories about all of these things (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, even Beowulf!) and overcoming weakness and temptation are absolutely Blue values, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. These are aspects of the so-called "Hero's Journey" which can be found in even "Stage Purple" cultures...

Of course, in saying that "everything in Tolkien is tradition and characters fulfilling their super-ordained and pre-destined role" I didn't mean to exclude all possibility of learning, growth and adventure; all of this, however, occurs within the context of a Blue mythology and worldview.

10 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

So you think he's Orange?

I think, based among other things on his strong Roman Catholic faith, his disdain for modern materialistic expansionism and his love of pagan mythology, that he is a Blue reaction against Orange. Anyway, probably not worth dwelling on this for much longer...

[thisintegrated]

8 hours ago, Artsu said:

I just looked at the stereotypes that spiral dynamics holds, which is not real vertical typology by the way, and it divides up as follows:

 

Red: Se

Blue: Si

Orange: Te

Green: Fe

Yellow: Ne+Ti

Turquoise: Ne+Fi

I'm not sure where Ni fits in. I'll come back to that later.

I agree with all of these, except not sure about Fi being associated with Turquoise.

Ni would be Red/Orange/Yellow, I would think.

 

But yeah, being a NeTi I do feel I've had an unfair advantage at developing a Yellow mindset early in life.  Though I guess Orange INTJs always had an advantage at more practical (Orange) things??

 

4 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

There are plenty of Blue stories about all of these things (Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, even Beowulf!) and overcoming weakness and temptation are absolutely Blue values, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. These are aspects of the so-called "Hero's Journey" which can be found in even "Stage Purple" cultures...

Of course, in saying that "everything in Tolkien is tradition and characters fulfilling their super-ordained and pre-destined role" I didn't mean to exclude all possibility of learning, growth and adventure; all of this, however, occurs within the context of a Blue mythology and worldview.

I think, based among other things on his strong Roman Catholic faith, his disdain for modern materialistic expansionism and his love of pagan mythology, that he is a Blue reaction against Orange. Anyway, probably not worth dwelling on this for much longer...

I'm not super-familiar with his work, so I'll say you could be right about him being Blue.  But the stages are not stereotypes, they're just levels of awareness.  He doesn't need modern Orange views to be Orange.  He grew up in a different culture to today, which would've made him appear Blue even if he was at Yellow.

 

Edit:  Just looked him up and turns out he did have quite a bit of Orange in him.  He took his studies very seriously, learned multiple dead/useless languages, and in university "formed a semi-secret society for critiquing each others' literary works".  He treated his work like a modern day Orange Computer Science student.

Edited June 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

11 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

except not sure about Fi being associated with Turquoise.

HAH! ENFP > ENTP ???

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

HAH! ENFP > ENTP ???

lol

You yourself view Turquoise as N + Ti.  Like Yellow, but deeper.

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

lol

You yourself view Turquoise as N + Ti.  Like Yellow, but deeper.

[Carl-Richard]

@thisintegrated

The kind of thinking in this thread reminds me of something I used to do when I was 18 years old and completely obsessed with how drugs work. I would look up every drug on psychonautwiki and correlate the phenomenology with the pharmacology, and then make general inferences based on that. For example, I would think things like: "visual acuity? That's glutamate." "Physical euphoria? That's dopamine and serotonin." "Fine motor movements? That's acetylcholine."

Then over time, I would look at all the overlapping receptor systems and effects and ask myself: "how meaningful are these correlations really?" I started to suspect they were extremely superficial, and of course the logical conclusion to that is to look at specific studies of statistically rigorous science and not just haphazardly correlate general descriptions.

This same process happened to me with MBTI. Now, when you say "this is just because you're FiTe — you don't like to use Ti and make logical inferences", my counter to that is that I obviously know how to use Ti very well, or else I wouldn't understand your Ti arguments at all, and that I even prefer to use it quite often, or else I wouldn't be addicted to self-admitted Ti giants like Bernardo Kastrup (he finally talked about it).

No, the difference between me and you is the level of conviction we have in some of our inferences, and I believe that my low level of conviction when it comes to MBTI is actually derived using logic, not merely as a blind appeal to authority "because it feels right." Anyways, enough about me ?

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

@thisintegrated

The kind of thinking in this thread reminds me of something I used to do when I was 18 years old and completely obsessed with how drugs work. I would look up every drug on psychonautwiki and correlate the phenomenology with the pharmacology, and then make general inferences based on that. For example, I would think things like: "visual acuity? That's glutamate." "Physical euphoria? That's dopamine and serotonin." "Fine motor movements? That's acetylcholine."

Then over time, I would look at all the overlapping receptor systems and effects and ask myself: "how meaningful are these correlations really?" I started to suspect they were extremely superficial, and of course the logical conclusion to that is to look at specific studies of statistically rigorous science and not just haphazardly correlate general descriptions.

This same process happened to me with MBTI. Now, when you say "this is just because you're FiTe — you don't like to use Ti and make logical inferences", my counter to that is that I obviously know how to use Ti very well, or else I wouldn't understand your Ti arguments at all, and that I even prefer to use it quite often, or else I wouldn't be addicted to self-admitted Ti giants like Bernardo Kastrup (he finally talked about it).

No, the difference between me and you is the level of conviction we have in some of our inferences, and I believe that my low level of conviction when it comes to MBTI is actually derived using logic, not merely as a blind appeal to authority "because it feels right." Anyways, enough about me ?

Just look at the way Russell Brand talks/debates, and compare it to a Ti user.  The differences aren't superficial.  His way of thinking is fundamentally different.  He talks about things out of Green personal feelings.  He refers to people in power as the bad guys, and only touches on topics he has strong emotional connections to, like "big pharma", "davos", "the elites", etc.  And ever wonder why he uses words you've never heard of before?  He's a Te user.  Personality types have great predictive power and can account for even such minor details.

Edited June 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Artsu]

@thisintegrated FiNe

@Carl-Richard SiTe

@AtheisticNonduality TiNe

[Carl-Richard]

50 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Just look at the way Russell Brand talks/debates, and compare it to a Ti user.  The differences aren't superficial.  His way of thinking is fundamentally different.  He talks about things out of Green personal feelings.  He refers to people in power as the bad guys, and only touches on topics he has strong emotional connections to, like "big pharma", "davos", "the elites", etc.  And ever wonder why he uses words you've never heard of before?  He's a Te user.  Personality types have great predictive power and can account for even such minor details.

Am I that though?

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

Am I that though?

You're like Russel.

 

1 hour ago, Artsu said:

@thisintegrated FiNe

I have Fi blindspot.  It's my weakest function of all.  

 

1 hour ago, Artsu said:

@Carl-Richard SiTe

Yeah, though those are his 4th and 3rd functions.  Would be more accurate to say NeFi.

 

1 hour ago, Artsu said:

@AtheisticNonduality TiNe

This is how I typed Atheistic too, but he believes himself to be an INTJ, which I can't really argue against.

Edited June 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Artsu]

Carl is Si dominant, look at the way he starts posts.

[thisintegrated]

19 minutes ago, Artsu said:

Carl is Si dominant, look at the way he starts posts.

You think he's an introvert, and a sensor?

I will let Carl respond to this, lol.

 

You're 100% a Ni dom, judging from these posts.

Edited June 24, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Artsu said:

Carl is Si dominant, look at the way he starts posts.

Lol how many posts have you read from me? 

[Carl-Richard]

41 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You're like Russel.

Because I dislike MBTI? Ok bro