falling for a friend Advise

[flowboy]

14 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

I guess the only solution is to be willing to lose her friendship?  I'm going to express my desire unapologetically otherwise I know I won't enjoy meeting her. If she doesn't  feel the same it's still ok, Probably we will remain friends.

If you do it right, it's really not that bad.

In that position I'd probably just start habitually mentioning my desires whenever I felt them, and then casually talking over them (not waiting for a response) by changing the subject. That it's sometimes hard for me to stay on topic because her physical attraction is hard to resist, that I feel myself getting hard when she mentions X, kind of whatever comes to mind but just putting your sexuality out there without looking for a response. This builds sexual tension, and it can go two ways from there:

1. She gets uncomfortable and the topic has to be addressed. You two decide that you have to take some weeks apart so that you can find another girl to project this energy onto and you can be better friends (if there's actually substance to the friendship)
2. She gets intrigued, doesn't seem to mind, giving you quiet permission to go further and make a move.

Edited June 25, 2022 by flowboy

[RMQualtrough]

18 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

@RMQualtrough I like this plan  It might work actually

It has the highest odds.

I don't know what all this bullshit masculinity stuff people keep pressing you on is about, it seems juvenile. Dating advice has always been people treating "don't find each other physically disgusting, do get emotionally close" as advanced calculus. Annoys me when I see it.

[Vercingetorix]

@flowboy

On 6/25/2022 at 0:03 PM, flowboy said:

If you do it right, it's really not that bad.

In that position I'd probably just start habitually mentioning my desires whenever I felt them, and then casually talking over them (not waiting for a response) by changing the subject. That it's sometimes hard for me to stay on topic because her physical attraction is hard to resist, that I feel myself getting hard when she mentions X, kind of whatever comes to mind but just putting your sexuality out there without looking for a response. This builds sexual tension, and it can go two ways from there:

1. She gets uncomfortable and the topic has to be addressed. You two decide that you have to take some weeks apart so that you can find another girl to project this energy onto and you can be better friends (if there's actually substance to the friendship)
2. She gets intrigued, doesn't seem to mind, giving you quiet permission to go further and make a move.

@flowboy I met her again (we met late around midnight) - and at the beginning of the meeting I was a lot in my head and I felt awkward so I was uncomfortable so say anything sexual. later, I become more confidant and wanted to address the issue. I had a good opportunity because we talked about sex and attraction so I wanted to say "So for example when I look at your lips I feel that I want to kiss them do you not feel the same way for me?"  but as I was about to say so she said she needs to go to the toilet and when she came back she said she is tired and she wants to go home (an hour and a half into the meeting) So I I thought it's a bad idea to open it up when she is tired, so I just said there is something I wanted to say but I'll keep it for next meeting.

[something_else]

26 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

"So for example when I look at your lips I feel that I want to kiss them do you not feel the same way for me?"

Sorry man but this is super cringy, I don't think you should say this to her.

If you're gonna try and escalate (which I don't recommend you do at this point) you're gonna need to be funny and playful about it, not super serious like that

[flowboy]

4 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

so I wanted to say "So for example when I look at your lips I feel that I want to kiss them do you not feel the same way for me?" 

Don't ever say that please. Looking for affirmation from her comes across super insecure. (which it literally is - if you felt secure you wouldn't be so in your head that you had to ask - you'd go by feeling and reading cues. I get that you're too far in it with this girl now that you can't be cool - but at least try to pretend, it's better than nothing)

Remove the part from "do you" onwards and then talk bullshit over it, never leave it hanging

On 25/06/2022 at 11:03 AM, flowboy said:

mentioning my desires whenever I felt them, and then casually talking over them (not waiting for a response)

Nuances matter!

Pressure on, pressure off.

Edited June 28, 2022 by flowboy

[flowboy]

4 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

so I just said there is something I wanted to say but I'll keep it for next meeting.

This is the opposite of what you should be doing.

Having a point on the agenda like this makes it into a Big Thing.

Which also makes it Very Awkward.

I feel for you because I had this mindset for a long time that if I just mustered up the courage to Confess My Feelings - she'd somehow reciprocate and happily ever after.

You're in a position now where you suppressed your desired towards her enough - that she basically is not aware you have a dick.

Confessing a secret love / attraction for her now, just rubs her nose in the fact that you were not confident enough to be yourself and show her what you want right off the bat. That's very unattractive so we don't want her to focus on that.

Therefore, you have to play it like sexual tension is slowly building, something that wasn't there before.

You want her to start wondering because of the hints that you drop whether you like her.

Not being sure!

She has to be kept on her toes, thinking about it, but not being sure whether you actually want her.

If you keep doing that and she doesn't leave or address it, you can do the same thing with a slow and playful physical escalation.

And @RMQualtrough is right, alcohol will probably improve your chances.

You can play the whole thing through in an evening and sleep with her, if you drink together.

Then in the morning, keep it together and don't go confessing your feelings, match her level of investment.

If she's acting casual, you act casual.

If she said it felt right, you confirm that.

If she says it was a mistake, you agree.

It doesn't matter what is said, just don't be more emotionally invested than her.

Then if she wants to meet up again, it's on (even if she said it was a mistake and she doesn't want to have sex again - actions speak louder than words)

Edited June 28, 2022 by flowboy

[Vercingetorix]

@flowboy I appreciate the advice. I have to reflect on it.
I don't feel like "playing games" is the right approach for me. if just feels...wrong. If when I'm honest with her she doesn't appreciate it -  maybe it's better that we won't be together. It makes me feel sick to start pretending and playing games. maybe that's my block? the nice guy symptom?
 
Our last meeting was interesting - on the one hand she seems really happy to meet me, we were pretty drunk, had a lot of physical touch and had deep and intimate conversations. I felt confidant and free. On the other hand - She started to talk about another guy she talks with and that she is falling in love with him (it's a second guy beside the other one she was "in love" with), and a few times during the date she sent him pictures and stuff...
I mentioned my feeling for her once and she said something like "don't do it, it's not mutual". Since then she send me a message of how I am but then asked for pictures and didn't reply or heard my voice messages and didn't answer the one time I called her yesterday. She is going through a lot of stuff right now so I'm holding my judgment of why she behaves this way and focus on other girls. logically speaking right now the odds don't seem to be in my favor but I'm interested in how things will unfold and the heartbreaking process is pretty fun.        

[flowboy]

8 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

I don't feel like "playing games" is the right approach for me. if just feels...wrong. If when I'm honest with her she doesn't appreciate it -  maybe it's better that we won't be together.

I understand that. I was giving you a prescription of behavior that I estimated to be your best shot ... but I also know that from the emotional position you are in with her, that would be very difficult to implement.

Careful though - you've been playing games this whole time. Feeling attraction and hiding it, pretending to be just a caring friend instead - that's the game you've been playing.

Quote

If when I'm honest with her she doesn't appreciate it -  maybe it's better that we won't be together.

Take this attitude to the next girl you meet and use it to express your desires no matter what she will think.

8 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

but I'm interested in how things will unfold and the heartbreaking process is pretty fun.     

I think it's pretty clear how things will unfold. She will never be with you, but she will use you as a shoulder to cry on over other guys she met - because that's the position you put yourself in.

And I suspect you're not genuinely thinking this is fun - are you using that as a cover for anger and hurt?

I would be angry and hurt. My own fault or not, doesn't matter.

If a girl I like is using me as a shoulder to cry on over guys... that fucking sucks.

I really fucked myself.

Fuck this nice guy conditioning.

That's what I would be feeling.

The heartbreaking process is pretty fun

I call bullshit?

More self-denial. More pushing away of your real feelings, which is what got you into this mess in the first place.

[Vercingetorix]

@flowboy

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

Careful though - you've been playing games this whole time. Feeling attraction and hiding it, pretending to be just a caring friend instead - that's the game you've been playing.

It's true to an extent, there were moments I was hiding my attraction but all in all I do think I was honest al told her multiple times about my interest in her. she knows!

 

Quote

Take this attitude to the next girl you meet and use it to express your desires no matter what she will think

yes! when I practice pick up I am always going direct these days.
 

 

2 hours ago, flowboy said:

I think it's pretty clear how things will unfold. She will never be with you, but she will use you as a shoulder to cry on over other guys she met - because that's the position you put yourself in.

And I suspect you're not genuinely thinking this is fun - are you using that as a cover for anger and hurt?

I would be angry and hurt. My own fault or not, doesn't matter.

There are moments when I feel needy and at those moments If I imagine seeing her with the other guy or thinking about losing her it's painful and I do feel angry. but If I let go of the neediness, Focusing on my love for her as person, on Other girls, on trust - I find peace in myself.
So is it hiding my anger and hurt? It feels more like the unhooking from an addiction of being needy. 

[flowboy]

@Vercingetorix  When was the first moment you remember learning that expressing your own desires and needs was not okay, and you had to push them aside?

I would guess if you're anything like me, you've had this dynamic with other women as you grew up. Probably also your parents.

And I know it's related to past experiences. It's a conditioned pattern.

I'm saying this because I have been (and sometimes still am) in the position you described. Where I really had a crush on a woman, and that somehow made it very hard to stay present with my own desires and boundaries, and almost impossible to express myself authentically.

Labeling this as "nice guy syndrome" and having a tough-love attitude of "just get over it" - I notice that impulse in me, because I know the pain of it, and I'm trying to help my past self through it as I'm trying to help you through it - but it's not the right way. I should not try to prevent you from feeling this pain (hurt/anger). In fact, feeling this pain fully is what helped me transform. Which is why I don't recommend spiritual bypassing (letting go, focusing on love, all that BS)

 

[Vercingetorix]

@flowboy Usually the memory that comes up on this subject is when I was like 11 and I liked a girl and I made a "move" (something like tried to be funny by stealing chips for another girl)  to impress her but this move made the other  girl go completely ape shit crazy and lose her shit on me and the girl I liked kind of said nothing but buy the way she looked at if, it felt as if she was supporting the other girl. So expressing my desire for me means I'm gonna get yelled at humiliated.

About the anger and hurt: I'm not sure if we mean the same thing or not. letting go and focusing on love  (and also Tonglen meditation) does breaks the needy and selfish conditioning in my experience. I agree that feeling the hurt/pain fully is important and I do it. But just thinking selfish needy thoughts is of no use. when you do it the energy goes to the mind and makes you distant from your feeling and body.

Update on the situation: I feel that I unhooked from her and don't care too much if she likes me or not. I focus on other girls and enjoying my life.
I feel free to tell her anything and it fells as if the power dynamics between us changed for now.

[flowboy]

9 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

 letting go and focusing on love  (and also Tonglen meditation) does breaks the needy and selfish conditioning in my experience. I agree that feeling the hurt/pain fully is important and I do it. But just thinking selfish needy thoughts is of no use. when you do it the energy goes to the mind and makes you distant from your feeling and body.

Update on the situation: I feel that I unhooked from her and don't care too much if she likes me or not. I focus on other girls and enjoying my life.
I feel free to tell her anything and it fells as if the power dynamics between us changed for now.

Tonglen meditation is excellent. Glad to hear you were able to get past it in this situation! I'm happy for you.

9 hours ago, Vercingetorix said:

Usually the memory that comes up on this subject is when I was like 11 and I liked a girl and I made a "move" (something like tried to be funny by stealing chips for another girl)  to impress her but this move made the other  girl go completely ape shit crazy and lose her shit on me and the girl I liked kind of said nothing but buy the way she looked at if, it felt as if she was supporting the other girl. So expressing my desire for me means I'm gonna get yelled at humiliated.

This is excellent that you remember this. The closer you can feel pain to its original context, the more longterm you are healing it.

If you want to avoid this predicament in the future, you might try some inner child work on it.

Edited July 6, 2022 by flowboy