Contradiction of Absolute Love in Nature?

[wayneleekw]

We established that the truth of reality and the universe is love and selflessness. We can see that the formula of selfishness does not work in human interaction. When we are selfish, we repel things and when we are selfless, we attract fruits. We established that selfishness is breaking out of metaphysical love. 

Yet in nature, there is plenty of selfishness. As demonstrated in competition and conflicts in the animal kingdom (for mating, eating, surviving), and even amongst tree roots fighting with each other in Leo’s video explaining conflicts. So how do we explain animals and plants “breaking out of metaphysical love” when they are acting selfishly for their own interests? 

Edited June 19, 2022 by wayneleekw

[Leo Gura]

You're drawing some distinction between humans and animals or nature, when in fact humans ARE animal and ARE nature. There's really little difference. Nature is all about survival and so is society and most humans. Selfishness runs through the whole thing.

All human interactions are basically built on selfishness. So it does work. It just has certain consequences and suffering that comes with it. But that's true of all of life and nature.

If selfishness didn't work, it wouldn't exist. The problem is that it works too well.

[billiesimon]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're drawing some distinction between humans and animals or nature, when in fact humans ARE animal and ARE nature. There's really little difference. Nature is all about survival and so is society and most humans. Selfishness runs through the whole thing.

All human interactions are basically built on selfishness. So it does work. It just has certain consequences and suffering that comes with it. But that's true of all of life and nature.

If selfishness didn't work, it wouldn't exist. The problem is that it works too well.

It has limits, or we would not be evolving society into a more progressive civilization. If the crudest survival strategies were the best, we would not be advancing since the early greek/latin/nordic tribes. Evolving consciousness means also evolving and enhancing survival. I think you explained this in the SD series. 

[wayneleekw]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're drawing some distinction between humans and animals or nature, when in fact humans ARE animal and ARE nature. There's really little difference. Nature is all about survival and so is society and most humans. Selfishness runs through the whole thing.

This is great, but if such is the case:

1. How do we know that us humans aren't animals that are deluding ourselves into thinking that Love is the absolute Truth, instead of selfishness and competition to be the absolute reality in a more physical / material / scientific paradigm?

2. If Love is the absolute truth of reality, what is the end game of the Universe and God? What is the ultimate purpose of absolute Love / God breaking off into an inferior, fragmented, form-version, selfish reality, only to "self-realize" and mend itself back into union with its perfect Loving Self, a process filled with deep pain and suffering? 

Edited June 19, 2022 by wayneleekw

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

It has limits, or we would not be evolving society into a more progressive civilization. If the crudest survival strategies were the best, we would not be advancing since the early greek/latin/nordic tribes. Evolving consciousness means also evolving and enhancing survival. I think you explained this in the SD series. 

I didn't say the crudest survival strategies are the best.

Survival comes in many, many degrees and it is constantly evolving. Evolution is survival at work. And everything is evolving, not just life but even mechanical stuff like your toaster.

6 minutes ago, wayneleekw said:

This is great, but if such is the case:

1. How do we know that us humans aren't animals that are deluding ourselves into thinking that Love is the absolute Truth, instead of selfishness and competition to be the absolute reality in a more physical / material / scientific paradigm?

By having an awakening.

You aren't an animal at all, you're God. Animals, physics, and science are just something you're dreaming up.

Quote

2. If Love is the absolute truth of reality, what is the end game of the Universe and God? What is the ultimate purpose of absolute Love / God breaking off into inferior, fragmented, form-version, selfish realities, only to "self-realize" and mend itself back into union with its perfect Loving Self, a process filled with deep pain and suffering? 

The end game is you realizing that you're God dreaming the whole thing up.

The end game is you realizing that there is no difference between anything. That's Love.

End game is becoming Infinity.

[wayneleekw]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The end game is you realizing that you're God dreaming the whole thing up.

The end game is you realizing that there is no difference between anything. That's Love.

End game is becoming Infinity.

@Leo Gura 

So why am I dreaming this dream? Why did I decide to come down here to play this game when I was already in perfect Nirvana?

Why would a boy being born in the American projects or a war-torn country dream this dream when he was already basking in Infinite Love?

If there is no difference between anything, why would some spirits choose to dream in poverty and some dream to be Warren Buffet's kids? Why choose to dream in the Paleolithic era where you can be eaten by a pack of hyenas rather than Year 4000 where you can actualize your creativity and explore the cosmos? Why choose a shitty dream?

Haha. Like if there is no difference, then why is there the illusion of a difference in the first place?

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, wayneleekw said:

@Leo Gura 

So why am I dreaming this dream? Why did I decide to come down here to play this game when I was already in perfect Nirvana?

Infinity has no beginning or end, so it's not exactly correct to say that you started in Nirvana. You started right where you are now and you're trying to realize yourself.

15 minutes ago, wayneleekw said:

Why would a boy being born in the American projects or a war-torn country dream this dream when he was already basking in Infinite Love?

If you basked in Infinite Love you might change your mind and wish to be human again. Infinite Love is pretty boring. The drama of life is much more interesting.

15 minutes ago, wayneleekw said:

If there is no difference between anything, why would some spirits choose to dream in poverty and some dream to be Warren Buffet's kids?

Why choose to dream in the Paleolithic era where you can be eaten by a pack of hyenas rather than Year 4000 where you can actualize your creativity and explore the cosmos? Why choose a shitty dream?

Precisely because there is no difference.

15 minutes ago, wayneleekw said:

Haha. Like if there is no difference, then why is there the illusion of a difference in the first place?

https://www.actualized.org/insights/why-love

[Matthew85]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The end game is you realizing that you're God dreaming the whole thing up.

Sometimes I wonder if there is a part of us as God that must enjoy or want to be lost in the dream. Otherwise, why would we imagine so many influences that keep us away from truth and asleep. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Matthew85 said:

Sometimes I wonder if there is a part of us as God that must enjoy or want to be lost in the dream.

Of course.

As soon as I entered Absolute Infinity / The Godhead, I immediately wanted to come back to the human dream. The Godhead is boring. There's nothing to do there. No drama, just endless peace. You don't want that much peace. You are a drama addict.

Quote

Otherwise, why would we imagine so many influences that keep us away from truth and asleep. 

It's more interesting than that.

Those influences are necessary in order for the dream to not immediately collapse. The avoidance of truth is like the backbone for the whole dream. Without it the dream would just unravel like a badly knit scarf.

God has to employ all its wits to fool itself into believing the dream. That's why it's so sneaky and deceptive. How else could God forget that it is God? It's a trick of the highest genius. God turns its own infinite intelligence against itself.

[wayneleekw]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Infinity has no beginning or end, so it's not exactly correct to say that you started in Nirvana. You started right where you are now and you're trying to realize yourself.

If you basked in Infinite Love you might change your mind and wish to be human again. Infinite Love is pretty boring. The drama of life is much more interesting.

Precisely because there is no difference.

https://www.actualized.org/insights/why-love

Fair enough for now. Awesome. 

[wayneleekw]

4 minutes ago, 8gates said:

Is infinite love/no self realization actually boring though leo?

According to my direct experience and teachers like rupert spira , the loss of self is the most pleasurable thing possible. According to him all activities are done to mimick the loss of self.isnt awareness of our true being happiness/pleasure itself? Arent all other activities just mimickings of that?

for example- He says the reason why like  people like orgasming is because of the temporary loss of self it gives you. The same with playing videogames/being in a work flow state etc. Do you disagree with this leo? 

Yes until it becomes boring. You beat the boss, you sit on the satisfaction for a bit, and then you play a new game all over again. 

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, 8gates said:

Is infinite love/no self realization actually boring though leo?

According to my direct experience and teachers like rupert spira , the loss of self is the most pleasurable thing possible. According to him all activities are done to mimick the loss of self.isnt awareness of our true being happiness/pleasure itself? Arent all other activities just mimickings of that?

for example- He says the reason why like  people like orgasming is because of the temporary loss of self it gives you. The same with playing videogames/being in a work flow state etc. Do you disagree with this leo?

He's talking about a basic sort of awakening, loss of self. That's not the end game.

I was talking about the end game, becoming pure Infinity. All life and form disappears forever. There is nothing to see and nothing to do there. You might as well consider it death.

[Vincent S]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

As soon as I entered Absolute Infinity / The Godhead, I immediately wanted to come back to the human dream. The Godhead is boring. There's nothing to do there. No drama, just endless peace. You don't want that much peace. You are a drama addict.

I’m sorry but this not true at all. If you really broke in to the Godhead, you would have completely chosen to end the dream.

You can resist it, which many of us do, but it feels like having the entire Universe on your shoulders, and standing on a ledge, in front of the abyss; ready to throw everything in to it, seeing how Beautiful it is if you would choose to do it. With all that weight on your shoulders, being an inch away from jumping; and then to resist it…

It is our own selfishness that brings us back. It is our own sense of unworthiness that denies ourselves to stay in that state. 

And of course our attachments.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Vincent S

[Vincent S]

The Godhead is far from boring I tell you. 
It is like being in an Infinite Orgasm. The more selfless you are, the less attached you are to the dream; The more pleasurable it becomes. Until the point of your last breath, and then you become it.

There would be no possibility to even think a thought like: “This is boring”, when you are in that state. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Vincent S

[blackchair]

1 hour ago, Vincent S said:

 

but it feels like having the entire Universe on your shoulders, and standing on a ledge, in front of the abyss; ready to throw everything in to it, seeing how Beautiful it is if you would choose to do it. With all that weight on your shoulders, being an inch away from jumping; and then to resist it…

 

very poetic way to put it.

[spiritual memes]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He's talking about a basic sort of awakening, loss of self. That's not the end game.

I was talking about the end game, becoming pure Infinity. All life and form disappears forever. There is nothing to see and nothing to do there. You might as well consider it death.

I've experienced something like this on my most intense trip ever. It was an infinite white void of infinite love. Time didn't really mean anything there, so any experience of it would be eternal. Interestingly, after the eternity was over, I felt myself ascending to an even higher plane of existence than that one which happened to bring me back into my material body and human life. It's like the ultimate strange loop.

[Terell Kirby]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

As soon as I entered Absolute Infinity / The Godhead, I immediately wanted to come back to the human dream. The Godhead is boring. There's nothing to do there. No drama, just endless peace. You don't want that much peace. You are a drama addict.

Interesting. The Godhead isn’t a place you go, it’s what you become. It’s hard to “un-become” something once that line is crossed through direct experience. Just adding a bit more context. 

Boring is a bit harsh lol. It’s kinda fun being able to see reality clearly and point out ones  human bullshit with such efficiency.

[RMQualtrough]

I believe that "Love" really means "total acceptance" but worded in a hippy confusing way.

Like how peace is not an emotion at all, peace is the lack of anxiety. "Love" the lack of any resistance. I think "love" is a shit term to use. I also think "God" is a shit term to use, because just browse around, 99% of people are posting about cloud-daddy type ideas.

I saw Leo recently use the term "Source" rather than God. Which I think is better, and also reminds me of playing CounterStrike: Source. BOOM HEADSHOT bitchezzz.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Vincent S said:

I’m sorry but this not true at all. If you really broke in to the Godhead, you would have completely chosen to end the dream.

I was in it for hours. But I didn't want to stay in it forever.

Quote

It is our own selfishness that brings us back. It is our own sense of unworthiness that denies ourselves to stay in that state. 

And of course our attachments.

I didn't contradict that.

For me it isn't not about unworthiness.

1 hour ago, spiritual memes said:

I've experienced something like this on my most intense trip ever. It was an infinite white void of infinite love. Time didn't really mean anything there, so any experience of it would be eternal. Interestingly, after the eternity was over, I felt myself ascending to an even higher plane of existence than that one which happened to bring me back into my material body and human life. It's like the ultimate strange loop.

Yes

55 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

Interesting. The Godhead isn’t a place you go, it’s what you become. It’s hard to “un-become” something once that line is crossed through direct experience. Just adding a bit more context. 

Boring is a bit harsh lol. It’s kinda fun being able to see reality clearly and point out ones  human bullshit with such efficiency.

When I mean Godhead here I mean the dreaming stops. You will not have any experience any more.

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

When I mean Godhead here I mean the dreaming stops. You will not have any experience any more.

You don't suppose your character will be forced to essentially "live there" forever when it dies though. It sounds like The Jaunt.

What do you mean by experience stops?