So it looks like Teal Swan is finally being exposed.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

 While it's a 'fair' criticism, keep in mind that all criticism is ultimately untenable. Even the most constructive good faith critic.

No one is above critisism and everyone can improve. When you are a central figure, your work will speak for itself, and at the end of the day, your work should defend you, from the unfounded critiques.

The most valuable thing you can get as a central figure, is a well thought out, good faith, constructive criticism.

Every criticism can be put on a spectrum and can be evaluated, how founded or unfounded it is. When it is backed by a lot of evidence, then it is maybe worth reflecting on.

For instance, some creator get a critique that he is very dismissive of opinions, that are different to his beliefs (and never elaborates why he disagree with his student, he just dismiss everyone all the time).

Lets say this teacher has 100 students and there are two scenarios.

Scenario 1: 50 students can show 30 videos where you can clearly see, that the teacher is actually being dismissive, and the teacher cannot provide one video that shows, that he actually evaluates his students opinions.

Scenario 2: One student can show only 2 videos when that teacher is being dismissive and the teacher to his defense, can provide 3-4 videos that showes he actually cares about other people opinions and he elaborates why he disagrees with something.

There is a massive difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2. Both can be put on a spectrum based on how much evidence and information is provided, and based on how much content you actually watched about that particular person.

Lets take scenario one, when half of your students give a critique to you, that is backed up by a lot of evidence, then maybe you should reflect on it, because something is most likely there.

 

Also, there are other situations that are very clear cut. For instance, there is a critique that a teacher is abusive. Someone can provide a video evidence about that teacher literally beating up one of his students so much, that the student fall into a coma. Now, even if you take your most good faith approach to interpret that video, you will end up with the same conclusion, so not everything is up for debate or up for interpretation.

Edited June 15, 2022 by zurew

[Ulax]

Have just watched the first episode of the doc.

Seems quite well done in terms of filming, and was quite inspired by parts of it.

I found her response to her student voicing the possibility of disagreement to be boundary violating, unhealthy and innapropriate. However, apart from that it all seemed pretty great stuff.

The stuff surrounding the episodes end about the dangers of her teaching seemed misguided. Strawmanning her idea of the suicide as a reset button by implying she was encouraging suicide was off the mark, I've seen that video and understand she isn't encouraging it, at least to my mind.

The folks blaming her partly for their daughter's suicide can't really be said either way. It could well be the case that the parents are deflecting blame from themselves, or that teal's teaching actually did cause suicide.

Further, stuff surrounding her not being licensed, while I get the view point its coming from, is more of a paradigmatic issue. She's into alternative healing, and also a form of healing she herself has devised, so certification and licensing is a lot less likely.

Also, critiques of the actual content of her healing are standard sorts of things than all forms of therapies really get critiqued with. For example, psychodynamic therapy may be critiqued as dangerous for not first exploring nonverbal forms of therapeutic release before engaging in talk therapy.

Plus, there were some points where she was simply being assertive. I.e. who gets to live with her. Thing is things like that will no doubt rub people up the wrong way, as assertiveness is often something vilified by people in society, even though its healthy.

Overall, aside from the one incident, I actually was quite fond and inspired by portrayed Teal.

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, Ulax said:

The stuff surrounding the episodes end about the dangers of her teaching seemed misguided. Strawmanning her idea of the suicide as a reset button by implying she was encouraging suicide was off the mark, I've seen that video and understand she isn't encouraging it, at least to my mind.

The 'blaming suicide on the leader' kind of behaviour is kind of silly in my opinion, but i get where those people are coming from. But they would never ever apply the same standards to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist. 

[Ulax]

Just now, zurew said:

The 'blaming suicide on the leader' kind of behaviour is kind of silly in my opinion, but i get where those people are coming from. But they would never ever apply the same standards to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist. 

Ye.

People do not uncommonly blame psychotherapists if someone kills themselves while engaged in therapy tho. I think its a bit like how people used to blame natural disasters on god punishing immoral actions of the people. The idea of someone's fault being the cause gives people a sense of control/ certainty, which is counter-intuitvely reassuring, imo.

[zurew]

.

Edited June 15, 2022 by zurew

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

No one is above critisism and everyone can improve. When you are a central figure, your work will speak for itself, and at the end of the day, your work should defend you, from the unfounded critiques.

The most valuable thing you can get as a central figure, is a well thought out, good faith, constructive criticism.

Every criticism can be put on a spectrum and can be evaluated, how founded or unfounded it is. When it is backed by a lot of evidence, then it is maybe worth reflecting on.

For instance, some creator get a critique that he is very dismissive of opinions, that are different to his beliefs (and never elaborates why he disagree with his student, he just dismiss everyone all the time).

Lets say this teacher has 100 students and there are two scenarios.

Scenario 1: 50 students can show 30 videos where you can clearly see, that the teacher is actually being dismissive, and the teacher cannot provide one video that shows, that he actually evaluates his students opinions.

Scenario 2: One student can show only 2 videos when that teacher is being dismissive and the teacher to his defense, can provide 3-4 videos that showes he actually cares about other people opinions and he elaborates why he disagrees with something.

There is a massive difference between scenario 1 and scenario 2. Both can be put on a spectrum based on how much evidence and information is provided, and based on how much content you actually watched about that particular person.

Lets take scenario one, when half of your students give a critique to you, that is backed up by a lot of evidence, then maybe you should reflect on it, because something is most likely there.

 

Also, there are other situations that are very clear cut. For instance, there is a critique that a teacher is abusive. Someone can provide a video evidence about that teacher literally beating up one of his students so much, that the student fall into a coma. Now, even if you take your most good faith approach to interpret that video, you will end up with the same conclusion, so not everything is up for debate or up for interpretation.

Your entire paragraph is both true and untrue. Why? Because you can always find something to criticize. Even the most unbiased attempted critique has bias. Because bias is a preference which is borne of a perspective. There is a saying "You could always have done more." This statement is both true and untrue because in one respect, there are things you may have missed, but in other respects hindsight is twenty/twenty and you actually did your best and whatever you missed because you had the same limitations as a human we all have which is lack of certain information that maybe critical at the time. That information in intelligence circles is known as a Black Swan. 

So you see how this goes? You can always criticize but what you criticize you yourself would have the same limitation. So how can you criticize someone for having the same limitation? I'll tell you this, I can play devil's advocate for ANYONE and construct any argument because at the end of the day an argument is just a perspective....just like my post and yours.

[Alex M]

6 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   It is extremely disingenuous and distorts what a cult actually is. Go watch some documentaries on Charles Manson first, and a few other cult leaders that fit the mold of a classic cult leader and cult first, and then compare that to Teal Swan, Leo Guru and others.

   Charles Manson is the poster child of a true cult leader. Worth studying. Of course, nothing compares to the exploitations , web of lies and manipulations of YOU, the ego mind, could do to cult itself to believe whatever it wants to, but that's a very deep topic.

Another good example for studying some cult dynamics. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06qc33m

[zurew]

41 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

So you see how this goes? You can always criticize but what you criticize you yourself would have the same limitation. So how can you criticize someone for having the same limitation? I'll tell you this, I can play devil's advocate for ANYONE and construct any argument because at the end of the day an argument is just a perspective....just like my post and yours.

As ive said its a spectrum, and there are clear cut cases that are not up for interpretation, but i agree that in the vast majority of the cases, it is up for interpretation. I don't agree with your approach, beacuse you are cutting out all critiques and labeling them "ohh all critiques are biased anyway, so why should i take any of them serious" but some of them can hold precious value. An ego has its own blind spots and it is important to have someone who can shine some light on our shadows and blindspots. If you cut all your criticism all the time, you will slow down your growth process, and this is true for almost any field.

A mentor or a coach is good, if it can give a very well defined , well targeted, constructive feedback. If everyone would dismiss that feedback as 'ohh it is just a biased opinion, who cares', then they would rob themselves from the opportunity to grow.

41 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You can always criticize but what you criticize you yourself would have the same limitation. So how can you criticize someone for having the same limitation?

I don't agree with this thinking process either. If someone for instance claims,that they can do this this and that, and they can't do that, then why can't you critcise them for being dishonest? Just because i can't do what they claim they are being able to do (when in reality they can't) , does that mean that i cannot critique that?

Reviews and feedback can be super important in our lifes , before we make a certain decision. Cutting all those thing out, i think is more damaging than being open to some level of criticism.

A lot of people choose a service or a product based on reviews and feedback. So i don't agree with feedback and criticism not being usable and that criticism not holding any value at all.

41 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

"You could always have done more."

Criticism like this  is very vague, but i wouldn't call this a good critique, because it is vague and not tangible and it is not constructive. What i am talking about, is giving good faith, tangible, well targeted criticism that is being backed by evidence, if it is necessary.

 

Not all perspective hold the same level of relevancy and value, so I wouldn't dismiss them all.

Edited June 15, 2022 by zurew

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Ulax said:

Is this not a new age spiritual community built around a charismatic leader?

There is no physical community here and very limited contact between us all. It's just a forum. And this is by design, a deliberate choice I made even though I could make a lot more money otherwise.

5 hours ago, fopylo said:

@Leo Gura

Dude I would say it is exactly the same with your loyal followers. Take a moment to also see how your own followers are immature, mentally unstable and emotionally reactive. Your community is quite dangerous as well if I'm being honest

Which is why I don't gather ya'll under one roof. I know the shitshow that would ensue.

Don't confuse a forum for a cult. You really don't understand what a cult is if you think this forum is anywhere close.

[Leo Gura]

Teal Swan's video advice is solid. As for how she manages and whether she abuses her physical community I have no idea.

[Ulax]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no physical community here and very limited contact between us all. It's just a forum. And this is by design, a deliberate choice I made even though I could make a lot more money otherwise.

Out of curioisty, what other things would that have entailed? I.e. actualized retreats

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Ulax said:

Out of curioisty, what other things would that have entailed? I.e. actualized retreats

Maybe. Not sure.

I will do some public speaking in the future but it will be limited. It won't be some kind of culty thing.

[billiesimon]

Teal Swan is a legit spiritual teacher. Her teachings are all based on psychodynamic theory, and can be confirmed by any psychotherapist. She just expresses them in spiritual lingo. She has a huge psychodynamic knowledge, and some of her advice is so deep that the masses misunderstand her. 

And I'm not her fan, but I've used her principles and they are really powerful and truthful. 

There's nothing to expose. Mainstream media is dumb, shallow and too materialistic to understand her point of view. The only thing to expose here is the documentary's embarrassing ignorance about psychology and healing. 

[puporing]

Seems pretty tough to put yourself out there like that (being in public on top of making content). I don't know how she does it sometimes.

It makes sense egos likes to make controversies. Nothing new there. 

[Razard86]

 

5 hours ago, zurew said:

As ive said its a spectrum, and there are clear cut cases that are not up for interpretation, but i agree that in the vast majority of the cases, it is up for interpretation. I don't agree with your approach, beacuse you are cutting out all critiques and labeling them "ohh all critiques are biased anyway, so why should i take any of them serious" but some of them can hold precious value. An ego has its own blind spots and it is important to have someone who can shine some light on our shadows and blindspots. If you cut all your criticism all the time, you will slow down your growth process, and this is true for almost any field.

A mentor or a coach is good, if it can give a very well defined , well targeted, constructive feedback. If everyone would dismiss that feedback as 'ohh it is just a biased opinion, who cares', then they would rob themselves from the opportunity to grow.

I don't agree with this thinking process either. If someone for instance claims,that they can do this this and that, and they can't do that, then why can't you critcise them for being dishonest? Just because i can't do what they claim they are being able to do (when in reality they can't) , does that mean that i cannot critique that?

Reviews and feedback can be super important in our lifes , before we make a certain decision. Cutting all those thing out, i think is more damaging than being open to some level of criticism.

A lot of people choose a service or a product based on reviews and feedback. So i don't agree with feedback and criticism not being usable and that criticism not holding any value at all.

Criticism like this  is very vague, but i wouldn't call this a good critique, because it is vague and not tangible and it is not constructive. What i am talking about, is giving good faith, tangible, well targeted criticism that is being backed by evidence, if it is necessary.

 

Not all perspective hold the same level of relevancy and value, so I wouldn't dismiss them all.

They say sometimes the greatest wisdom is found in one simplicity. I will explain to you how all criticism is untenable. You criticize and judge life, every human is  guilty of this. Life, and everything in it is made by an infinite intelligence. If an infinite intelligence can't avoid your criticism please explain to me how you even think your qualified to understand if your criticism is even valid?

Again...you criticize infinite intelligence. Also one more thing....you criticize yourself. So then, what makes you qualified to give criticism when you can't even meet your own standards? You make this too easy you know.

So every human is a hypocrite, but you think your criticism is valid. LOL.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Razard86

[BlueOak]

11 hours ago, Ulax said:

Lmao ye she's absolutely full of it.

I used to watch her vids a lot too.

Literally just watch this scene from the timestamp:

https://youtu.be/N486N0EJfd0?t=496

Teal's main defence seems to be that it was all a matter of a lack of context. The behaviour elicited in that scene by her is inappropriate and unhealthy no matter the context, from someone in her position.

Her social intelligence is not her strong point as demonstrated here, and that I've always had a problem with, or found flaws in. I agreed above that her name and personality is too front and center to not avoid things like this, so in that I do agree with the psychologist. I also agree with him that she does push people, and I liked that trait, because ten years ago I was far too stagnate in my own misery, I wore it like a cloak. By following her completion process I managed to work through some issues, and it was uncomfortable and it did push me and I was alone. Because I could not afford a therapist.

So let's be frank. Where are all these free therapists for people? It's alright pulling one of the few sources down, but who is replacing it? Because the people that need therapy the most can never afford it in the first place, so again we stagnate as a society.

If you have a link to someone who is more emotionally intelligent than teal swan, I would genuinely like to follow them. I've never found them. In which case who is meant to mentor her on that aspect of life? I'm sure someone out there exists but it's such an underdeveloped topic we could use more references. 

Some leaps of judgement, in that someone has an argument, and now supposedly they don't want anyone around them that questions them? Well then why or how was there an argument? He contradicts himself on this point, as an argument can only come from two opposing viewpoints.

As for emotions and regulating them, that's unhealthy in itself for a frank discussion in this sort of setting. You want your emotions on as a guide. That's the point of her work. This is not a professional setting where a standard of behavior needs to be met, it seems to be a small group of people chatting together.

Yes you do need to figure out who you are. I don't know where he got 'damn the world' from, but we need a certain amount of damn the world to change it. This is another example of how we are losing or have lost the drive to change, it needs a certain amount of radical thinking or action which says damn the status quo.

[BlueOak]

It's all about finding the balance between radical elements of social change driving it, and pulling it back with standards like this. It does overly limit the actions someone can take outside of the established social structure, but I've accepted the word cult is collectively being used as a pressure release for seeing change develop, and that's healthy.

One more point emotional outbursts are healthy. Very healthy if you are paying attention. Part of teals work encourages them and not everyone is comfortable with that, and that's fine. I put myself fully into her work when I was doing it, and indeed this post knowing i'd learn something, and I did. That over three or four posts on different topics I have/had a problem with social suppression, more than it deserved. Part of stage green showing :D. Hopefully, this has corrected it in me to see it as more of a necessary dynamic. 

Gratitude.

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

If an infinite intelligence can't avoid your criticism please explain to me how you even think your qualified to understand if your criticism is even valid?

Again...you criticize infinite intelligence. Also one more thing....you criticize yourself. So then, what makes you qualified to give criticism when you can't even meet your own standards? You make this too easy you know.

Whether my crticism is valid or not will be not up to me to decide, but it will be up to the person who recieves it. Also, i think you are conflating the absolute with the relative here. As long as we are planning on operating this ego, we will need to face the harsh nature of reality, from this relative pov. I assume, you think that feedback = bad all the time, but i won't agree with you there, and i layed out in my previous paragraphs why i don't agree with that approach. We give feedback all the time, especially, when we disagree with someone. Now, again, your feedback and disagreement can be formulated in different ways and not all hold the same value and utility.

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I will explain to you how all criticism is untenable. You criticize and judge life, every human is  guilty of this.

The irony of this whole thing, is that you actually judge me and giving me feedback, because i say that criticism can sometimes be valid and usable.

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

So every human is a hypocrite, but you think your criticism is valid. LOL.

I think we shouldn't conflate the absolute with the relative. I agree, that every human is a hypocrite if we would to judge it from the absolute pov, but obviously we shouldn't do that, because no one can live up to those standards in a finite form. So we go with standards using the relative pov, and here we are. But notice, even that statement is a judgement statement "every human is a hypocrite" and it is true. Is that bad that you said that? I don't think so, and i think it is true. If we always use these absolute pov arguments, we will lose all nuance all the time, and talking about anything will be meaningless.

 

Edited June 16, 2022 by zurew

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, billiesimon said:

There's nothing to expose. Mainstream media is dumb, shallow and too materialistic to understand her point of view.

It's also possible that while her POV is great and her videos are great, she could be running a manipulative, power-hungry organization via her physical community. You'd have to know how much she charges her community members and how she wields power over them.

Recording videos is easy compared to running a physical commune. There is a possibility that her physical commune is abusive, exploitative, and toxic. But I have no idea. You'd need some deep insider experience of that.

[ZenAlex]

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's also possible that while her POV is great and her videos are great, she could be running a manipulative, power-hungry organization via her physical community. You'd have to know how much she charges her community members and how she wields power over them.

Recording videos is easy compared to running a physical commune. There is a possibility that her physical commune is abusive, exploitative, and toxic. But I have no idea. You'd need some deep insider experience of that.

Exactly this Leo.

It's like scientology. Most of their supporters are fringe members who simply are used for their money and references, but their inner circle are the ones who receive the abuse, as they are the ones most brainwashed, financially and emotionally invested, and reliant on the cult, and therefore less likely to run and report anything.

Teal will get a lot of rave reviews because her books and teachings probably help people, but the reality is she has made herself like a hero at the center of her teachings, she appears very superficial and has an inner sanctum of her most devoted followers segregated from society in a commune, who obviously experience things most of her fans will not.

It may not be a cult, but it sure as hell looks likely. 

Intelligently organised cults will always help many people to give them an aura of validity. 

She probably has great insight into other people, but not everyone who has this understanding always wants to use it to help others more than they need to help themselves. 

Teal could be a great misunderstood spiritual teacher, but the evidence is piling up.

Edited June 16, 2022 by ZenAlex