What is your barometer for discerning the truth of insights?

[Matthew85]

I am very intrigued in the amazing potential psychedelics can offer us in our work exploring consciousness and reality. But I would be interested to hear from my fellow psychonauts how you go about discerning the truth and validity of the insights and revelations you receive? I have seen examples of people gaining profound truths and others becoming very deluded. Obviously there are many factors that could contribute to either scenario. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Matthew85

[Matthew85]

@BenG Many. On a personal level I have friends who's lives did a 180 for the better after the healing and insights they received from ayahuasca ceremonies. I also know someone who's life completely unraveled after they got deep into LSD. 

One of the barometers I use is to look at the their life or the fruits of what they are doing. 

[Proserpina]

Fruits is a good barometer, however if someone is the Fool or Joker archetype (if they are different, disordered or disabled, accepting and polarized) fruits won't be a barometer. A good barometer in that regard would be their connection to spirit,  which only they can know. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Proserpina

[amanen]

I go completely by the feeling, because truth and bliss are actually the same thing, if the truth makes you unhappy it likely is not the truth.

Nonduality is extremely beautiful

True solipsism is also the least lonely perspective that there is with infinite creative and playful potential

[Matthew85]

3 minutes ago, amanen said:

I go completely by the feeling, because truth and bliss are actually the same thing, if the truth makes you unhappy it likely is not the truth.

@amanen I agree. 

[Matthew85]

8 minutes ago, Proserpina said:

Fruits is a good barometer, however if someone is the Fool or Joker archetype (if they are different, disordered or disabled, accepting and polarized) fruits won't be a barometer. A good barometer in that regard would be their connection to spirit,  which only they can know. 

@Proserpina Good point! 

[Matthew85]

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

True solipsism is also the least lonely perspective that there is with infinite creative and playful potential

@amanen Can you expand on this? 

[amanen]

4 minutes ago, Matthew85 said:

@amanen Can you expand on this? 

In true solipsism god is completely self aware and has complete aliveness to everything. The other is literally you, the animating intelligence is the same. 

Because God can split itself into many parts it can generate an infinite number of highly interactive games where finite selves interact with so many other finite selves, so it cannot know loneliness as long as the finite selves have something to interact with

Even in godhead states where there were no finite selves (that I've experienced) there was no loneliness, if anything it was the complete opposite, the total surrender to other as an intelligence when you know its you was somehow not lonely at all because you yourself were so great in magnitude, so you did not feel lonely nor need an 'other'

[Matthew85]

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

Even in godhead states where there were no finite selves (that I've experienced) there was no loneliness, if anything it was the complete opposite, the total surrender to other as an intelligence when you know its you was somehow not lonely at all because you yourself were so great in magnitude, so you did not feel lonely nor need an 'other'

@amanen In my most expanded states I have never felt loneliness either. Perhaps when people feel loneliness it is their ego mind filtering and trying to interpret their experience. 

[SeaMonster]

3 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@BenG Many. On a personal level I have friends who's lives did a 180 for the better after the healing and insights they received from ayahuasca ceremonies. I also know someone who's life completely unraveled after they got deep into LSD. 

One of the barometers I use is to look at the their life or the fruits of what they are doing. 

My guess is that the difference between the two is that the people whose lives got better actually applied the hard truths they received during their journeys and the person who got deep into LSD didn't want to face the hard truths.

That's the only reason to get "deep" into a psychedelic -- you receive a harsh truth...and you go "I don't like this answer, I want a different answer."  In other words, you don't want to face the truth.

The truth is simple.  It relates to your life, it's not some kind of abstract metaphysical bullshit for you to lord over people who haven't tried the psychedelic.  It's what you're supposed to change in your life.  

And most of the time it has to do, like you said, with healing.  Trauma causes self-neglect and self-abuse, and the proper insights can restore self-care and self-love and self-respect and change one's life in the process.

There is nothing complicated or complex about any of this shit -- anyone telling you otherwise is taking you along for the ride on his ego trip.

 

[SeaMonster]

4 minutes ago, BenG said:

This seems right

It's all extraordinarily simple and basic.  We're all just walking meatbags of trauma and can go to amazing lengths to avoid facing our pain, so we stay stuck in our bad habits.  

That's all psychedelics do (and need to do.)  They show you this so you can't hide from it (although some people do actually manage to hide from it.)

[Leo Gura]

Exactly the same as without psychedelics.

Most people don't do psychedelics and are deluded as fuck. So psychedelics aren't the issue.

What you're talking about is the topic of epistemology, ego development, and self-deception. All of which I have covered.

[SeaMonster]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What you're talking about is the topic of epistemology, ego development, and self-deception. All of which I have covered.

Out of curiousity -- what hard truths about yourself have you faced after your psychedelic journeys?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, SeaMonster said:

Out of curiousity -- what hard truths about yourself have you faced after your psychedelic journeys?

Mostly just my own selfishness, arrogance, and limited worldview.

[RMQualtrough]

If one of your ideas is relative in nature, and testable, then you can see if you're just wacko. If you think you can cure people of cancer and blindness etc, then you will find out pretty quickly that you have in fact, lost the plot.

Some things are logically proveable etc.

And then there is the definitive type of truth... You don't need experiments or science to show you that you are aware and that things are appearing. This type of truth is self evident and absolute. It cannot be superceded or denied, it does not require logic or experiments.

[gettoefl]

first thing is, every person you meet speaks the whole truth according to their level of consciousness

therefore where you prove you are unawakened is by judging the validity of their truths

which is what this thread is doing

your truth isn't my truth

quit saying you're wrong to people

and start saying wow interesting, i can see where you are in you journey now

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by gettoefl

[Matthew85]

58 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

and start saying wow interesting, i can see where you are in you journey now

@gettoefl I do this all the time.

The only delusion and self deception I am interested in is my own. 

 

[Matthew85]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What you're talking about is the topic of epistemology, ego development, and self-deception. All of which I have covered.

@Leo Gura Can you share more on your personal process of how you circumvent the inherently self deceptive nature of the mind to validate insights you have? For example, when you first had the insight you were the only conscious being in existence, what was your process for validating the truth of this insight? What is your understanding and explanation of the very paradoxical nature of such an insight? 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Matthew85

[Matthew85]

Could it be a mistake to view psychedelics as always leading us to truthful insights? I've noticed that many of us who explore consciousness via psychedelics have a belief that they always lead to truthful insights. But what if that isn't the case? What if they could also lead you to some distorted or deluded beliefs? We have to be open to that possibility. How would you discern? Maybe it's not wise to place all your eggs to awakening in one basket. If you love psychedelics, you don't want to consider this, but if you genuinely care about truth, we should consider it. 

[Matthew85]

@BenG I agree.

I just want to be mindful to not get too reliant on any one method as being THE WAY and negate other ones. Often I see people doing this. Direct experience and cultivating keen intuition are the best ways to discern I have found. I also wonder how much peoples belief systems impact the insights they have on psychedelics. I see patterns of this in both near death experiences and psychedelic trips. Peoples culture and belief's always seem to color the experience to different degrees.