What is there, other than survival?

[Oeaohoo]

19 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Leaving Neverland.

Haha! 

I always thought this obsession with survival was one of the weaker aspects of Leo’s teaching. It seems to degrade everything to a sort of spiritualised Hobbesian state of nature and overlooks the fact that survival is only really valuable so long as it is facilitating a certain function. When an organism is no longer serving a spiritual, practical or material Dharma it dies; therefore, Dharma trumps survival.

For example, many today would say that sexuality is merely about survival, but what about Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde and all the others who died for their romantic love? The Troubadours and the other chivalrous poets used to play on the relationship between the words amor (love) and mort (death) because they understood that these two impulses are closely related. Likewise the Hara centre in Japanese subtle anatomy and the Svadisthana-Chakra of Tantra is the centre of sexuality and death. Even Freud saw that with his Eros and Thanatos.

There is much more to existence than mere survival.

[integral]

@Sempiternity I feel like this is spiritual bypassing or Its mixing up the absolute with the relative and all belief that one has transcended survival is a temporally blissful state allowed by easy life conditions. 

If pain is the most beautiful thing then its no different then an orgasm? So why pursue orgies if pain is just as amazing? 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by integral

[Sempiternity]

2 minutes ago, integral said:

@Sempiternity I feel like this is spiritual bypassing and all belief that one has transcended survival is a temporally blissful state allowed by easy life conditions. 

If pain is the most beautiful thing then its no different then an orgasm? So why pursue orgies if pain is just as amazing? 

This is ironic, as I am a masochist. Pain is as pleasurable as an orgasm to me. When at an orgy, I sometimes ask someone to flog or cane me as hard as they can, for as long as they can, till me back is totally bruised, black, blue, and bloody, and I reach the most euphoric state, on par with or maybe even better than an orgasm. 

Whatever this is Now is perfect. Suffering can't exist Now, as Now is all there is. Suffering comes from comparing to other. There is no other, only Now. 

[Leo Gura]

On 6/13/2022 at 4:28 PM, thisintegrated said:

If survival is all there is, why aren't we just embracing it?  Why are we elevating intellectual matters above animalistic matters?  It's all the same anyway.  Turquoise gurus aren't any more evolved than Reds who selfishly kill people for money.  The contributions of Turquoise are meaningless garbage. 

A really bad take.

There are many degrees of survival. There are healthy and unhealthy ways of surviving.

By definition every living thing has to survive. But there are better and much worse ways to go about it. Unhealthy forms of survival create lots of suffering and end up backfiring so badly that survival self-terminates.

Turquoise gurus are way more evolved than Reds.

Beyond survival is Truth, Being, Consciousness, Love, God, Intelligence, Beauty.

[thisintegrated]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

By definition every living thing has to survive. But there are better and much worse ways to go about it. Unhealthy forms of survival create lots of suffering and end up backfiring so badly that survival self-terminates.

Turquoise gurus are way more evolved than Reds.

Beyond survival is Truth, Being, Consciousness, Love, God, Intelligence, Beauty.

The only advantage of advanced societies I see is having the option of comfort.  Having dealt with the need for survival, we end up creating artificial needs for survival in the form of games / social ladders / etc.  One way or another, we still end up playing the same game.  The only difference is when we get bored of call of duty we can go play another game, or just relax in bed.  But the driving force in life is always the same.

Fundamentally, studying philosophy at university is no better than killing people for sport.  Suffering is imaginary anyway, and other people are just whatever they are within your imaginary experience.  Of course, in the end, the benefits of an advanced society will win out, but the future's imaginary too, and the present has nothing to do with a separate future Earth.

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 hour ago, Sempiternity said:

Pain is as pleasurable as an orgasm to me.
Suffering can't exist Now, as Now is all there is. Suffering comes from comparing to other. There is no other, only Now. 

So pain is just a sensation; suffering requires comparison. And yet you use comparison when you say "pain is as pleasurable as an orgasm to me" or "euphoric state, on par with or maybe even better than an orgasm" or whatever else. "Survival" or at least some viable stand-in for it has to exist for minds and bodies to function, whilst making choices, performing acts, etc. So it seems as though you've tapped into nonduality (the duality between pain and pleasure collapses) and infinite imagination (the future where this pain is alleviated is imaginary, therefore there is nothing better than this pain and all is perfect), but you still must have biases, which are "survival" in a sense.

39 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Of course, in the end, the benefits of an advanced society will win out, but the future's imaginary too, and the present has nothing to do with a separate future Earth.

Time exists.

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 hour ago, Oeaohoo said:

For example, many today would say that sexuality is merely about survival, but what about Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde and all the others who died for their romantic love?

People don't die for love nowadays. They only die of a more literal heart disease.

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

The only advantage of advanced societies I see is having the option of comfort.  Having dealt with the need for survival, we end up creating artificial needs for survival in the form of games / social ladders / etc.  One way or another, we still end up playing the same game.  The only difference is when we get bored of call of duty we can go play another game, or just relax in bed.  But the driving force in life is always the same.

You are missing spirituality.

Quote

Fundamentally, studying philosophy at university is no better than killing people for sport.  Suffering is imaginary anyway, and other people are just whatever they are within your imaginary experience.  Of course, in the end, the benefits of an advanced society will win out, but the future's imaginary too, and the present has nothing to do with a separate future Earth.

You are misusing the teachings.

If you were actually conscious and developed you would not be thinking in this way.

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated Yeah honestly, I expected something more impressive from you.

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You are missing spirituality.

You are misusing the teachings.

If you were actually conscious and developed you would not be thinking in this way.

I mean of course there's Love, but I'm talking about what you want to do in your free time.  What do people wanna do?  Play survival games, watch survival movies, watch Bear Grylls survival documentaries, appreciate art inspired by the cycle of life, or the great depression or something, listen to pop music about overcoming/surviving the difficulties of life, and maybe some classical music too, by Bach, about the euphoria of finding God and it helping overcome the survival struggles or whatever, and then maybe discuss philosophy about the human condition, and how to best survive amidst all the suffering.

 

2 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@thisintegrated Yeah honestly, I expected something more impressive from you.

Maybe you're just not thinking deeply enough.  Of course my views are different when I think at a practical/Yellow level, but when you take solipsism and Turquoise ideas into account it's all very different.  Evil and Love become the same.

 

3 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Time exists.

Nope.  It does not.  Time is what we call the rapid transition from one reality to the next.  At least this is how Turquoise sees it.  

Edited June 15, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Maybe you're just not thinking deeply enough.  Of course my views are different when I think at a practical/Yellow level, but when you take solipsism and Turquoise ideas into account it's all very different.  Evil and Love become the same.

That level of nonduality makes all things identical, including rightness and wrongness morally but also ontologically, truthfully, really; that is, if you say there is no moral difference between two acts based on your nondual perceptions, you must also admit that the supposed "truth" of this statement is equally imaginary with its opposite and permeated by the same God, you must admit Evil and Love being the same is the same as Evil and Love not being the same. And of course, Evil and Love have different forms, though they are attributes of the same substance.

13 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Nope.  It does not.  Time is what we call the rapid transition from one reality to the next.  At least this is how Turquoise sees it.  

If you are moving from one reality to the next, both realities are real, or existent. They exist, such as 1 exists and 1 exists, therefore 2 exist. One moment exists and one moment exists, thereby meaning time as them together exists. The only way to collapse motion, moments strung together, is to deny what your experience is. You have never seen a frozen "single-moment" in your life, just motion.

[thisintegrated]

3 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

If you are moving from one reality to the next, both realities are real, or existent. They exist, such as 1 exists and 1 exists, therefore 2 exist. One moment exists and one moment exists, thereby meaning time as them together exists. The only way to collapse motion, moments strung together, is to deny what your experience is. You have never seen a frozen "single-moment" in your life, just motion.

Yeah they're all "real".  But they're not connected.  If we have murder, violence, and destruction in one 2022, we can still have a Turquoise utopia in 2050 in another reality.  They ain't connected.  From what I've heard, our earth was doomed, and damaged beyond repair in the 1980s.  No matter what we do now, life on Earth is forever doomed.  Luckily, there are infinite Earths, and it doesn't matter in the slightest if our Earth explodes tomorrow.

[SourceCodo]

What exactly is your point? 

Like what's your ask here? More murder because we're animals?? Hope not. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

34 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Yeah they're all "real".  But they're not connected.

How can you have a timeline where the time-points aren't connected?

34 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

From what I've heard, our earth was doomed, and damaged beyond repair in the 1980s.  No matter what we do now, life on Earth is forever doomed.

Cite your source.

42 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Luckily, there are infinite Earths, and it doesn't matter in the slightest if our Earth explodes tomorrow.

"Who cares if one more light goes out in a sky of a million stars? . . . I do."

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

How can you have a timeline where the time-points aren't connected?

I had thought something like this would be obvious to you.

The timeline isn't some "thing" that's "out there".  It's a product of your consciousness connecting the dots which are, otherwise, unconnected.

 

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Cite your source.

C-Carl?  It's an unrelated topic anyway.

 

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

"Who cares if one more light goes out in a sky of a million stars? . . . I do."

You're imagining that one light tho.

Edited June 15, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

4 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I had thought something like this would be obvious to you.

The timeline isn't some "thing" that's "out there".  It's a product of your consciousness connecting the dots which are, otherwise, unconnected.

So all things are One but can only exist unconnected. ???? The two realities of two moments share the same over-Reality, and their connection is not just through concept; they actually form a chain, even if two links of a chain are "otherwise unconnected."

8 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

C-Carl?  It's an unrelated topic anyway.

A source is required since your position was based on something you heard. The quality of the information you were receiving needed confirmation.

9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You're imagining that one light tho.

You're imagining that you're imagining that you're im--- . . . etc. Conflating Imagination (divine) with imagination (human merely) is a shame. But that is probably not what you're trying to do. You could say the light only exists in a human mind since all the other moments besides the present Now have no reality of their own (they are "otherwise unconnected" or imagined only conceptually), the same way you cannot know other perspectives besides your own to exist (solipsism). But the analogy to solipsism doesn't work because the experiencer has the ability/potential to witness multiple moments (via the equation experience as we know it = motion).

[thisintegrated]

12 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

So all things are One but can only exist unconnected.

Cite your source?

 

12 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

???? The two realities of two moments share the same over-Reality

Source??

 

12 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

their connection is not just through concept; they actually form a chain, even if two links of a chain are "otherwise unconnected."

Source??

 

12 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

You're imagining that you're imagining that you're im--- . . . etc. Conflating Imagination (divine) with imagination (human merely) is a shame. But that is probably not what you're trying to do. You could say the light only exists in a human mind since all the other moments besides the present Now have no reality of their own (they are "otherwise unconnected" or imagined only conceptually), the same way you cannot know other perspectives besides your own to exist (solipsism). But the analogy to solipsism doesn't work because the experiencer has the ability/potential to witness multiple moments (via the equation experience as we know it = motion).

Citations????

Edited June 15, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated The one that singlehandedly deleted Big 5 from relevancy and debunked all of modern psychology without any citations is asking for me to cite my sources . . . .

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

I mean of course there's Love, but I'm talking about what you want to do in your free time.  What do people wanna do?  Play survival games, watch survival movies, watch Bear Grylls survival documentaries, appreciate art inspired by the cycle of life, or the great depression or something, listen to pop music about overcoming/surviving the difficulties of life, and maybe some classical music too, by Bach, about the euphoria of finding God and it helping overcome the survival struggles or whatever, and then maybe discuss philosophy about the human condition, and how to best survive amidst all the suffering.

1) Don't make a shadow out of survival.

2) Enjoy life, enjoy survival, enjoy the process. Much joy can be found in survival. Go talk to some girls, get laid, and enjoy it. Go start a business, make a bunch of money and enjoy it. Go jerk off and enjoy it.

There is nothing to else to do in life but enjoy it. Drop the philosophy and start the enjoying. The only reason to do philosophy is if you enjoy it.

[Spiral Wizard]

I like this definition:

Survival is fear based

Creation is love based 

I believe that it is possible to become so conscious and loving as a human being that there is no fear left.