Insights or self-deception?

[Patok95]

Hi. A few days ago I had 2 significant insights about reality - noself and connection between me and other people. Those insights happened after Leo's video about solipsism (I made his exercise). I realized on the intuitive/feeling level that some stuff were true. However my mind still bother with many questions and try to rationalize stuff - for example it tries to manipulate the vision of the emptiness and needs to conceptualize it. Although I can feel that and I have no objections about for example the noself issue in self-inquiry, I have an impression that my left-side brain is trying to force some things.

Is it normal? - The thing that rational knowledge or doubts come with companion of solid inner feeling? Can all of that be classified as an real insight despite everything? I wanna underline that I am rather at the early level (1.5 year of practice).

Thanks.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Patok95

[Leo Gura]

No-self is way more than just an insight. No-self actually requires loss of a sense of self.

Imagine that you simply forgot the self is even a thing. That's would be true realization of no-self. Right now you are just holding no-self as an idea.

Notice, a coffee table cannot even conjure up the idea of a self. That's true no-self. What is a self anyway?

[Blackhawk]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is a self anyway?

It's me. It's self-evident/undeniable, to me.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Leo Gura]

@Blackhawk You have no clue what you are.

[Blackhawk]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

@Blackhawk You have no clue what you are.

Okay. Well, I would love to know what I am.

[Leo Gura]

Just now, Blackhawk said:

Okay. Well, I would love to know what I am.

Go for it

[Blackhawk]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Go for it

How? Psychedelics I assume.

Okay I might do it.

[Seraphim]

4 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

It's me. It's self-evident/undeniable, to me.

Your body and soul are real, however if you (the human) tries to find a real, objective Self or Mind within you, all you will find are thoughts, and in the center of those thoughts is the I-thought, the Self and the Mind are distortions created by the I-thought, they are not real. So you are not who you think you are, you are reality itself, you are beyond the mind.

[UnbornTao]

5 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

It's me. It's self-evident/undeniable, to me.

Dig it. It only appears to be that way.

It's a thought, a concept.

[Blackhawk]

2 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Dig it. It only appears to be that way.

It's a thought, a concept.

Or maybe the stuff you believe in is a thought/concept.

But I don't know.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Seraphim]

14 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Or maybe the stuff you believe in is a thought/concept.

The non-duality teachings are all about going beyond the mind, dropping the concepts and seeing what is real. To look within at the false ideas and concepts we have built up which affects how we perceive reality, and letting go of those so that we can see clearly and be free and happier.

[Blackhawk]

3 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

The non-duality teachings are all about going beyond the mind, dropping the concepts and seeing what is real. To look within at the false ideas and concepts we have built up which affects how we perceive reality, and letting go of those so that we can see clearly and be free and happier.

Great. Sounds all good and nice, but that doesn't convince me.

[Seraphim]

4 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Great. Sounds all good and nice, but that doesn't convince me.

I guess a selling point for non-duality teachings is that since it is all about dropping the concepts and beliefs you won't commit to any beliefs that could later turn out to be false. So it is the safest path for people who are skeptical and rational. To intend to believe for the rest of your life that you are a Mind in a human body or whatever it is that you believe you are, is a big commitment, it would be unfortunate if you spent your whole life believing in a lie, right? 

[Blackhawk]

4 minutes ago, Seraphim said:

I guess a selling point for non-duality teachings is that since it is all about dropping the concepts and beliefs you won't commit to any beliefs that could later turn out to be false. So it is the safest path for people who are skeptical and rational. To intend to believe for the rest of your life that you are a Mind in a human body or whatever it is that you believe you are, is a big commitment, it would be unfortunate if you spent your whole life believing in a lie, right? 

There's just one thing which you are missing..: That the non-duality stuff is concepts and beliefs too. (Which is pretending to not be that).

Hello. Wake up.

[UnbornTao]

@Blackhawk

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

Or maybe the stuff you believe in is a thought/concept.

But I don't know.

Sure. All beliefs are concepts. 

You seem to be looking for intellectual conviction. Don't try to climb an imaginary mountain. Unfortunately, no matter what others tell you, self-verification through direct experience is essential here. Don't expect to be "sold" to nonduality through a logical and mental validation process.

If it isn't possible, then what is all this fuss about? Seemingly sincere individuals throughout history have pointed out the possibility of grasping your true nature beyond belief and doubt.

To be fair, most charlatans do indeed hold nonduality as just a cute or revolutionary idea, but there have been a few who have actually "awakened", see Gotama Buddha.

Consider it an invitation for personal exploration, not for believing stuff -- which is antithetical to the real work.

Lastly, I'm afraid you might be looking for things to justify a negative cosmology (worldview) that you're holding. Drop that. That could cause unnecessary suffering. A positive relationship to life is far more enlivening, intelligent and healthier. 

What do you wanna know? Contemplate that deeply until you become directly conscious of its nature. Check out Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry and, perhaps, study his example.

[Seraphim]

14 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

There's just one thing which you are missing..: That the non-duality stuff is concepts and beliefs too. (Which is pretending to not be that).

Hello. Wake up.

Like believing that there is no duality, or that there is an I-thought, or that dropping one's concepts will lead to liberation? Are those the types of beliefs you have in mind? Those "beliefs" come from my direct experience and investigations of reality, they are not causing me any psychological suffering and are similar to believing that there are trees and cars and houses. It is very different from believing in things that are not really there, like the false Self or the Mind.

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, UnbornTao said:

@Blackhawk

Check out Ramana Maharshi's self-inquiry and, perhaps, study his example.

Some random guy who x amount of people chose to worship. That's why I should believe in what he said. Gotcha.

[Blackhawk]

4 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

 

You seem to be looking for intellectual conviction.

I'm looking for any kind of conviction or undeniability. I'm not fixated on "intellectual" only.

[UnbornTao]

2 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Some random guy who x amount of people chose to worship. That's why I should believe in what he said. Gotcha.

Haven't you heard his story?

He was a guy with no interest nor knowledge in spirituality. In one moment he spontaneously got deeply and permanently enlightened. 

Don't get stuck in irrelevant details. Worshippers or not, Indian or X, doesn't matter. He seems convincing, haha.

You choose what examples to study.

In any case, I'm not sure you really want to listen. Maybe you're just trolling. 

Open up: contemplate who and what you are. That's the direct approach.

[Blackhawk]

8 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Haven't you heard his story?

He was a guy with no interest nor knowledge in spirituality. In one moment he spontaneously got deeply and permanently enlightened. 

Don't get stuck in irrelevant details. Worshippers or not, Indian or X, doesn't matter. He seems convincing, haha.

You choose what examples to study.

In any case, I'm not sure you really want to listen. Maybe you're just trolling. 

Open up: contemplate who and what you are. That's the direct approach.

Dude.. that is all hearsay. Especially the "he got enlightened" part.

"Ohh the big Ramana Maharshi got ennnnnlightened because it's written on some books."

Not different from the Bible. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Blackhawk