Veganism: Choline and Creatine Deficiency

[integral]

I recently took a hair mineral analysis and found a deficiency in Choline, Creatine, Biotin, b1 and b2. This is after going vegan for about a year.

Choline and Creatine are nutrients found exclusively in animal products. 

Are these nutrients necessary, should I be worried about it? I experimented recently with Choline and creatine supplementation and can definitely feel something.

How are vegans supposed to get these nutrients?

[Vincent S]

B1, B2, B3(Niacin) and B12 (fortified) you can get out of Nutritional Yeast. B12 is also in a lot of the peels of vegetables. Especially potatoes, if you eat the skin when you roast them or boil them, you get your B12. B12 is a bacteria and is in most if not all soils and in fresh spring water. But since we have a nutrition imbalance in our soils these days, we have to get it through other means. And the meat you eat for b12, that's not all natural I'm afraid. Cattle and farm animals get b12 shots they too, because what they usually eat is soy and other restfoods. Unless you eat grass fed, but that's a bit questionable as well. IMO.

Choline vegan sources according to google: Legumes, tofu, green vegetables, potatoes, nuts, seeds, grains and various fruits.

Creatine vegan sources according to google: walnuts, nuts, seeds, almonds, pine nuts, legumes, beans, peas and seaweed.  

Edited June 11, 2022 by Vincent S

[The0Self]

It can definitely be an uphill battle. There are supplemental alternatives to naturally getting those nutrients from eggs, dairy, and meat though. You could take 1. phosphatidylcholine (do some research on whether anything else is needed for choline deficiency), and 2. creatine monohydrate. Make sure it's a good, clean, quality product. And do some research on which foods give you enough b1, b2, and biotin -- if the need cannot be met with food, supplement.

[Michael569]

I'd be curious how accurate are hair mineral interpretations of those particular nutrients. Just because a result of A tests says something, especially a tests such as hair mineral analysis which is just notoriously inaccurate, does not mean that's what the situation is. Also, what evidence is there that X-levels of choline and creatine in hair tissue has anything to do with in-tissue levels? I'd be curious to explore that 

Secondly I don't even know if serum levels of those nutrients are a realistic interstation of in-tissue levels. We can certainly measure choline and creatine but is it a valid interpretation of what happens inside the cells? Might be and might not. For example serum levels of nutrients like B12, B9, Zinc are notoriously inaccurate when measure in blood compared to markers like methylmalonic acid, holo transcobalamin or active folate. Specific markers need to be often sought for accurate representation of in-tissue vitamin levels otherwise we are just guessing. 

If we agree that results are accurate (which we don't know) it could be that with improved food combining those things could be fixed to ensure you are eating sufficient amount of B-vitamin rich nutrients (wholegrains and legumes) and sufficient amino acid pool to supply creatine building blocks. Choline is also found in abundance in legumes and wholegrains so could it be that you're simply sacrificing particular food groups and correcting that could help correct those levels. Hard to say without knowing more about your dietary structure. 

You can be Vegan in a thousand different dietary ways. 

[UDT]

@integral Choline is huge for liver health. Creatine is the most studied performance enhancing supplement of all time. Both very important.

 

Veganism is a nutrient deficient diet, I´m sorry but if health is your goal, strict veganism is not going to work. I have deep empathy for the ethics of it, I didnt create the rules here, but we need animal produce.

[Bobby_2021]

On 6/12/2022 at 3:30 AM, UDT said:

Veganism is a nutrient deficient diet, I´m sorry but if health is your goal, strict veganism is not going to work. I have deep empathy for the ethics of it, I didnt create the rules here, but we need animal produce.

Agreed.

Creatine deficiency can be solved by supplementing creatine @integral .

Supplement with Creatine Monohydrate; MuscleBlaze is a good brand. 

I am on it as well while in a normal diet. 

 

Veganism isn't gonna work. We ate animals for millions of years. I don't want to discourage you, but you must know that you are fighting an uphill battle. 

I would recommend atleast, a vegetarian diet, not vegan. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[ZenAlex]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:00 PM, UDT said:

@integral Choline is huge for liver health. Creatine is the most studied performance enhancing supplement of all time. Both very important.

 

Veganism is a nutrient deficient diet, I´m sorry but if health is your goal, strict veganism is not going to work. I have deep empathy for the ethics of it, I didnt create the rules here, but we need animal produce.

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

You people literally don't do a shred of research, and just look a cases like these of deficient vegans and assume veganism is to blame.

You're right, you didn't create the rules, and you are wrong. And people's personal choices can impact their health.

There is LITERALLY a plant based on option for everything the body needs. I don't know how to explain it more clearer than that.

 

[The0Self]

On 6/11/2022 at 6:00 PM, UDT said:

@integral Choline is huge for liver health. Creatine is the most studied performance enhancing supplement of all time. Both very important.

 

Veganism is a nutrient deficient diet, I´m sorry but if health is your goal, strict veganism is not going to work. I have deep empathy for the ethics of it, I didnt create the rules here, but we need animal produce.

A rare few of us who happen to have a very holistic overview of health in general, built-up over years of passion for the subject, could perhaps make veganism work for ourselves if we decided it's simply what needed to be done. But it would certainly be an uphill battle, at least in the beginning. Meat-exclusion already doesn't work well for me, but I can't imagine full veganism. I would not encourage people to give up veganism, but I also wouldn't encourage people to start -- and for people under age 18 or so, I don't think veganism is ever safe unless the person knows everything there is to know about nutrition and physiology, which is impossible.

It's a maverick diet -- if someone wants to blaze that trail, go ahead, but leave your children out of it for as long as possible, so you don't stunt their growth. Vegan diet might not be guaranteed to stunt a child's growth (although it actually might be lol), assuming one does everything right (high in the sky), but it is certainly more likely to do so than a balanced diet.

Edited June 13, 2022 by The0Self

[Bobby_2021]

There is no point of research if it makes you feel like crap. 

There is an agenda to promote veganism by the elites. They will skew research and will even hire body builders like Arnold to promote it.

Still in reality it feels like shit.

[ZenAlex]

23 hours ago, The0Self said:

A rare few of us who happen to have a very holistic overview of health in general, built-up over years of passion for the subject, could perhaps make veganism work for ourselves if we decided it's simply what needed to be done. But it would certainly be an uphill battle, at least in the beginning. Meat-exclusion already doesn't work well for me, but I can't imagine full veganism. I would not encourage people to give up veganism, but I also wouldn't encourage people to start -- and for people under age 18 or so, I don't think veganism is ever safe unless the person knows everything there is to know about nutrition and physiology, which is impossible.

It's a maverick diet -- if someone wants to blaze that trail, go ahead, but leave your children out of it for as long as possible, so you don't stunt their growth. Vegan diet might not be guaranteed to stunt a child's growth (although it actually might be lol), assuming one does everything right (high in the sky), but it is certainly more likely to do so than a balanced diet.

I love how people make this point about worrying about nutritional deficiencies while being vegan, as if the average person would have a clue about nutrition whether they be a vegan, vegetarian or meat eater.

Have you looked at the average person? Do you think the average person is meeting all of their nutritional requirements?

You need to know what you're doing regardless of whether or not you are vegan. 

Most people aren't healthy vegan, veggie or meat eater. 

[Bobby_2021]

If you are average person it makes sense to diversify your diet to make sure that you don't miss out on any nutrients.

These days the soil has degraded in quality manifold that fruits and vegetables do not offer the same nutritional value as they used to do a century before.

You must take supplements to replace them.

[The0Self]

29 minutes ago, ZenAlex said:

I love how people make this point about worrying about nutritional deficiencies while being vegan, as if the average person would have a clue about nutrition whether they be a vegan, vegetarian or meat eater.

Have you looked at the average person? Do you think the average person is meeting all of their nutritional requirements?

You need to know what you're doing regardless of whether or not you are vegan. 

Most people aren't healthy vegan, veggie or meat eater. 

Veganism + physiology knowledge > standard American diet + lots of soybean and canola oil

I'll concede that.

[Vincent S]

On 6/14/2022 at 9:34 PM, Judy2 said:

Supplement your B12 or see if other foods you eat regularly are fortified with it.

I wouldn't count on nutritional yeast or dirt(?) alone to cover for it.

The sources for choline and creatine are looking good.

Thank you for your feedback.
It can be boring taking pills every day or every other day. But with nutritional yeast, you can sprinkle it over literally everything you eat. In smoothies, in salads, over your cooked meals etc. Also it tastes great.
And 313% of daily value from 2 teaspoons. Sounds enough to cover it.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Vincent S

[integral]

@Vincent S Nutritional Yeast really agitates me for some reason. Eyes also become red. 

[Vincent S]

26 minutes ago, integral said:

@Vincent S Nutritional Yeast really agitates me for some reason. Eyes also become red. 

That doesn't sound so fun. Maybe try some liquid b12 supplement then.

Example:
https://solgar.co.uk/products/solgar-liquid-b12-2000-with-b-complex-59-ml

Here is a good video on it, recommend this guys channel if you're a vegan,

 

[Thought Art]

Maybe a balanced diet for you includes some high quality animal products. I eat vegan 95% of time but occasionally eat animal products like cheese and I find I feel pretty good usually.

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Maybe a balanced diet for you includes some high quality animal products. I eat vegan 95% of time but occasionally eat animal products like cheese and I find I feel pretty good usually.

That sounds like a very reasonable approach. That's probably all vegans need to do if they're having issues staying healthy, rather than insisting on consuming no animal products of any kind ever.

[mojsterr]

On 13/06/2022 at 11:24 AM, ZenAlex said:

You have literally no idea what you're talking about.

You people literally don't do a shred of research, and just look a cases like these of deficient vegans and assume veganism is to blame.

You're right, you didn't create the rules, and you are wrong. And people's personal choices can impact their health.

There is LITERALLY a plant based on option for everything the body needs. I don't know how to explain it more clearer than that.

 

Lierre was a vegan for 20 years. She took all of her suppllements religiously, did a lot of research and got all the essentials in her body, just plant based instead of meat.

In the end her body was fucked up and she had to go back to meat. Even her womb was ruined and couldn't have children anymore.

 

Watch her interview if you dare:

https://www.sacredcow.info/lierre-keith?fbclid=IwAR2Q3XCB7obwMBA7CMI2SkiLcoAWjSUI8M1dT_iBWA4iGSgZBnv18Q8NjtQ

Edited June 20, 2022 by mojsterr

[Adodd]

The amount of misinformation on veganism on this part of the forum is wild. You guys know creatine supplementation is almost ALWAYS vegan right?