What exists outside the universe?

[Someone here]

My own answer is that the universe has no outside because its literally infinite.  It stretches out endlessly in all directions. But not just In terms of space. In terms of time also . Back you move ,you will not find a beginning. Ahead you move ,you will not find an end. 

What do you think? 

Edited June 11, 2022 by Someone here

[ZzzleepingBear]

I think you just answered your own question.

[DocWatts]

Might as well ask what exists outside of Reality. 

Any metaphysics worth its salt should ground its ontology within nature, regardless of whether it's theistic or atheistic.

[Bobby_2021]

I don't think so.

There can be an outside, but you simply cannot access it.

This is the only way multiple sovereign beings could exist.

You  cannot interfere with my integrity because my universe isn't accessible to you.

My universe is outside of yours and Absolutely disconnected from yours.

I am the only sovereign being here.

Same for you. 

[Someone here]

@DocWatts @Bobby_2021

To answer the question of what's outside the universe, we first need to define exactly what we mean by "universe." If you take it to mean literally all the things that could possibly exist in all of space and time, then there can't be anything outside the universe. Even if you imagine the universe to have some finite size, and you imagine something outside that volume, then whatever is outside also has to be included in the universe.

Even if the universe is a formless, shapeless, nameless void of absolutely nothing, that's still a thing and is counted on the list of "all the things"  and, hence, is, by definition, a part of the universe.

If the universe is infinite in size, you don't really need to worry about this conundrum. The universe, being all there is, is infinitely big and has no edge, so there's no outside to even talk about.

Oh, sure, there's an outside to our observable patch of the universe. The cosmos is only so old, and light only travels so fast. So, in the history of the universe, we haven't received light from every single galaxy. The current width of the observable universe is about 90 billion light-years. And presumably, beyond that boundary, there's a bunch of other random stars and galaxies.

 

[Bobby_2021]

35 minutes ago, Someone here said:

@DocWatts @Bobby_2021

To answer the question of what's outside the universe, we first need to define exactly what we mean by "universe." If you take it to mean literally all the things that could possibly exist in all of space and time, then there can't be anything outside the universe. Even if you imagine the universe to have some finite size, and you imagine something outside that volume, then whatever is outside also has to be included in the universe.

Even if the universe is a formless, shapeless, nameless void of absolutely nothing, that's still a thing and is counted on the list of "all the things"  and, hence, is, by definition, a part of the universe.

If the universe is infinite in size, you don't really need to worry about this conundrum. The universe, being all there is, is infinitely big and has no edge, so there's no outside to even talk about.

Oh, sure, there's an outside to our observable patch of the universe. The cosmos is only so old, and light only travels so fast. So, in the history of the universe, we haven't received light from every single galaxy. The current width of the observable universe is about 90 billion light-years. And presumably, beyond that boundary, there's a bunch of other random stars and galaxies.

 

I am not talking about the unreachable physical boundary of the universe, as in astrophysics.

By universe I mean you.

@Someone here You cannot access the phone which I use to type this message.

I can't access your device either. 

You cannot ever experience my pov even a little bit.

Because we are both sovereign Gods in our own universe.

Which is why I think there will always some things you cannot access because they are outside your universe. 

Because the other God won't tolerate violating his integrity. So his universe will always remain inaccessible to you.

It is possible due to perfect disconnection. 

THings exist perfectly outside of your universe.

[DocWatts]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

@DocWatts @Bobby_2021

To answer the question of what's outside the universe, we first need to define exactly what we mean by "universe." If you take it to mean literally all the things that could possibly exist in all of space and time, then there can't be anything outside the universe. Even if you imagine the universe to have some finite size, and you imagine something outside that volume, then whatever is outside also has to be included in the universe.

Even if the universe is a formless, shapeless, nameless void of absolutely nothing, that's still a thing and is counted on the list of "all the things"  and, hence, is, by definition, a part of the universe.

If the universe is infinite in size, you don't really need to worry about this conundrum. The universe, being all there is, is infinitely big and has no edge, so there's no outside to even talk about.

Oh, sure, there's an outside to our observable patch of the universe. The cosmos is only so old, and light only travels so fast. So, in the history of the universe, we haven't received light from every single galaxy. The current width of the observable universe is about 90 billion light-years. And presumably, beyond that boundary, there's a bunch of other random stars and galaxies.

By the Universe, the most sensible working definition I've come across is that it's synonymous with Nature. 

This isn't necessarily the same thing as 'Reality', as one can imagine a bifurcated Reality divided into Nature and a hypothetical Divine realm that's prior to and 'above' Nature (as many religions attest).

Galaxies and stars beyond the event horizon (due to cosmic inflation) are still a part of Nature, and thus still part of the Universe even if we'll never be able to access them due to the light speed barrier.

Note that this isn't an argument in favor of materialism, as many forward thinking philosophers have managed to ground notions of God or the sacred within Nature; Hegel and Whitehead both come to mind. Idealism for instance is a way of recontextualizing nature as integrated whole composed of consciousness.

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by DocWatts

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not talking about the unreachable physical boundary of the universe, as in astrophysics.

By universe I mean you.

@Someone here You cannot access the phone which I use to type this message.

I can't access your device either. 

You cannot ever experience my pov even a little bit.

Because we are both sovereign Gods in our own universe.

Which is why I think there will always some things you cannot access because they are outside your universe. 

Because the other God won't tolerate violating his integrity. So his universe will always remain inaccessible to you.

It is possible due to perfect disconnection. 

THings exist perfectly outside of your universe.

Again it depends on how you define "universe ".

You are defining it as just your little bubble of perceptions. The visual field and the audiotry perceptions etc. 

In that case yes ..there is definitely something outside of your universe. Namely the entire cosmos minus your bubble of perceptions. Which means you have less than 0.000000000001% access to the universe.  Not sure why would you  limit the definition of the universe to that degree. 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

By the Universe, the most sensible working definition I've come across is that it's synonymous with Nature. 

This isn't necessarily the same thing as 'Reality', as one can imagine a bifurcated Reality divided into Nature and a hypothetical Divine realm that's prior to and 'above' Nature (as many religions attest).

Galaxies and stars beyond the event horizon (due to cosmic inflation) are still a part of Nature, and thus still part of the Universe even if we'll never be able to access them due to the light speed barrier.

Note that this isn't an argument in favor of materialism, as many forward thinking philosophers have managed to ground notions of God or the sacred within Nature; Hegel and Whitehead both come to mind. Idealism for instance is a way of recontextualizing nature as integrated whole composed of consciousness.

 

We are not sure but can theorize what lies beyond the universe that we know. Outside the bounds of our universe may lie another universe. Space outside space that extends infinitely into what our little bubble of a universe may expand into forever. Lying hundreds of billions of light years from us could be other island universes much like our own. But why can't we see them? It's a possibility that they are so far away that by the time their light reaches us, it may have lost so much energy that we cannot detect it, or our universe may end by the time it reaches us.

Another theory is that we are creating space as our universe expands. Outside this expansion lies a higher dimensional space-time universe which we are unfolding into. Since it is higher dimension, we cannot see, detect it, or comprehend it.

Once again I emphasise that it depend on how you define the universe. If you mean the scientific observed universe that physicists know today..then it has a finite radius and a finite age . But if we are talking about Universe with Capital U ...that includes all possible universes and all possibilities that we can't even imagine..and in that sense it's definitely absolutely infinite. Leaving no room for anything to be outside it.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Someone here

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not talking about the unreachable physical boundary of the universe, as in astrophysics.

By universe I mean you.

@Someone here You cannot access the phone which I use to type this message.

I can't access your device either. 

You cannot ever experience my pov even a little bit.

Because we are both sovereign Gods in our own universe.

Which is why I think there will always some things you cannot access because they are outside your universe. 

Because the other God won't tolerate violating his integrity. So his universe will always remain inaccessible to you.

It is possible due to perfect disconnection. 

THings exist perfectly outside of your universe.

You don't understand Leo's Infinity of God's video. Your POV can be accessed, if you give permission. That is what he means by sovereign it cannot be forced. An analogy I have for you is your organs are ultimately one. But let's say all of a sudden your arm doesn't take communication from your brain, now your arm cannot move. 

Think of it like that. We are all connected, if me and you did DMT right now, we could potentially access each other's POV. There are people who had NDE's and were able to access everybody they interacted with POV. So its possible. Me and your baseline awareness would hide this. But on a psychedelic or if we were both close to death we could experience that connection. So we can be separate but we can also be one.

Its a relationship, of ONE that can be experienced separately. That is what Infinity of Gods means.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Razard86

[Leo Gura]

There is no universe.

There is only your Mind.

What you call the universe is just a dream within your Mind.

[Vincent S]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no universe.

There is only your Mind.

What you call the universe is just a dream within your Mind.

What was the last straw, before this dawned on you? What made you realize this?

[Bobby_2021]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no universe.

There is only your Mind.

What you call the universe is just a dream within your Mind.

Then how can an infinity of Gods exist?

What if Gods exactly like me imagine other worlds exactly like I do? 

Other Gods exist that are perfectly disconnected to my mind.

What you say implies Solipsism is correct. 

And infinity of Gods do not invalidate Solipsism, but it opens up the possibility to connect with other Gods, so other sovereign God's must exist. 

I have to think more about this, until I can Clearly articulate and maybe I will start a post to discuss this further.

Anyway my only problem is: 

1) Each God is sovereign inside God's mind. 

2) Multiple God's can exist.

3) It's not possible to violate the sovereignty of other Gods. 

So something outside of the mind exist.

You cannot access it.

Coz

IT's LITERALLY OUTSIDE OF YOUR MIND. 

So any attempt to access it is futile. 

 

Think of a disconnected graph for eg.

you are the node in a graph constantly imagine up new nodes. You only connect to the nodes you imagine.

Meanwhile other Gods imagine up new nodes such that they are perfectly disconnected/outside form me/you.

Oneness perfectly divides itself in a constant paradox.

Let's be real for a moment. 

Leo is imagining Bobby and Bobby is imagining Leo.

1) Leo is a dream to Bobby.

2) Bobby is a dream to Leo.

There are two Gods imagining infinite disconnected minds.

 

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Vincent S said:

What was the last straw, before this dawned on you? What made you realize this?

I don't know if there was a last straw. I've had hundreds of awakenings which gradually revealed various facets of the core truth that everything is my own mind.

I would not have been able to realize it without psychedelics. But also the psychedelic itself is not enough, you gotta seriously question and deconstruct everything.

In the end you realize that you are an Infinite Mind, and that's what reality is. This Infinite Mind can have no ground or outside of any kind since it is absolutely sovereign.

45 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Then how can an infinity of Gods exist?

An infinity of Gods only exists in your Mind.

Quote

Let's be real for a moment. 

Leo is imagining Bobby and Bobby is imagining Leo.

1) Leo is a dream to Bobby.

2) Bobby is a dream to Leo.

There are two Gods imagining infinite disconnected minds.

If you want to really be real for a moment, realize that nothing outside your mind has ever existed, nor will ever exist.

You can claim till you're blue in the face that Leo is dreaming you, but in absolute fact all you ever have is you dreaming Leo, and this will never be otherwise. If you say that Leo is dreaming you, you are dreaming that Leo is dreaming you. Which is just your dream.

You can try all sorts of clever ways to weasel your way out of this, but it will always just be your dream.

You will never find anything within existence other than you.

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

There is no universe.

There is only your Mind.

What you call the universe is just a dream within your Mind.

Let's take an  Examples question to make this inquiry more concrete........ Does planet Mars exist while one is not perceiving it? 

My Answer :

Nothing exists for you/me except the stuff that is occurring in your (my)  direct experience in the NOW.

Existence =NOW. Ideas about here and there.. Now and then and back then.. Up there and down here..themselves must occur NOW for them to be just more concepts occurring again NOW. 

 It's not that there is an absolute static truth about whether "Mars" "exists".. There is no such thing as "Mars".. For all you know mars could be exploding and getting destroyed now.. So it exists at one point and it doesn't exist in the next moment.  How about when you are dreaming and completely lost in your dream..mars doesn't exist in the context of your dream world. Just like a flying spaghetti monster does not exist in this world as far as we can tell.. But who knows maybe it exists in some other dimension! You see it's all relative. Identity itself is relative to time and change. Existence itself is relative to a frame of reference and to an observer. 

So does mars exist? Yes and no without a doubt relative to whatever one imagines this question even "means" lol. But don't go looking for an absolute answer. No idea is absolute. 

[Vincent S]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know if there was a last straw. I've had hundreds of awakenings which gradually revealed various facets of the core truth that everything is my own mind.

I would not have been able to realize it without psychedelics. But also the psychedelic itself is not enough, you gotta seriously question and deconstruct everything.

In the end you realize that you are an Infinite Mind, and that's what reality is. This Infinite Mind can have no ground or outside of any kind since it is absolutely sovereign.

It’s funny that you mentioned that. Because during my second LSD trip (and a few after that) Something similar was revealed to me. At the peak of these trips/realizations, I went above this Infinite Mind, and saw that it was Everything. But what made it more confusing, was that I was shown that there was something beyond this Infinite Mind. I looked up and It was pitch black. But I saw an opening of a tunnel in the far distant. As soon as I was approaching it, the peak subsided and I went back in to the mind, where this life was contained in.

But that begs the question: If it is an Infinite Mind: Why was I able to go beyond it and observe it from above? That would mean that there is something outside of this Infinite Mind or Maze of Everything.

Also wouldn’t be Infinite if it was seen from above, that would make it finite. Unless it has different layers of more Mind, inside of each other. Extending forever… Bubbles within Bubbles.

I have been able to break out of this Mind, a few times. Where I observed pure Infinite Void. Before hitting that Infinite Void, I passed Mind and entered that tunnel. But was only able to observe Formlessness and Nothingness, while being “there”.

But it’s so complex in that “space” that whatever words I choose to describe it, would just lead to confusion and do no justice to what it really Is.

This was and is so f*cking profound that I have gone to great lengths and been trying to go around this fact with all the other awakenings and have tried to understand those initial awakenings/trips.

Maybe will gain some clarity on this in the upcoming trips.

Will keep deconstructing. Cheers ✨

Edited June 12, 2022 by Vincent S

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Then how can an infinity of Gods exist?

What if Gods exactly like me imagine other worlds exactly like I do? 

Other Gods exist that are perfectly disconnected to my mind.

What you say implies Solipsism is correct. 

And infinity of Gods do not invalidate Solipsism, but it opens up the possibility to connect with other Gods, so other sovereign God's must exist. 

I have to think more about this, until I can Clearly articulate and maybe I will start a post to discuss this further.

Anyway my only problem is: 

1) Each God is sovereign inside God's mind. 

2) Multiple God's can exist.

3) It's not possible to violate the sovereignty of other Gods. 

So something outside of the mind exist.

You cannot access it.

Coz

IT's LITERALLY OUTSIDE OF YOUR MIND. 

So any attempt to access it is futile. 

 

Think of a disconnected graph for eg.

you are the node in a graph constantly imagine up new nodes. You only connect to the nodes you imagine.

Meanwhile other Gods imagine up new nodes such that they are perfectly disconnected/outside form me/you.

Oneness perfectly divides itself in a constant paradox.

Let's be real for a moment. 

Leo is imagining Bobby and Bobby is imagining Leo.

1) Leo is a dream to Bobby.

2) Bobby is a dream to Leo.

There are two Gods imagining infinite disconnected minds.

 

Infinity cannot be explained, because it is paradoxical. It is a contradiction. Its why I have been saying to people on the forum that reality is a mirror, and it is a paradox. When you say there are two Leos you are creating finitude. You have created two separate infinities....which makes them finite. The paradox of Infinity of Gods, is a dream, within a dream, within a dream, within a dream. Quantum Mechanics talks about superposition two things existing at the same time. But we all know all separation is illusion. So if it is an illusion then it is a dream. But how reality- real is created is through dream. So Infinity of Gods exist but it exists within a dream. Which basically says there are infinite dreams. Infinity dreams all interconnected which ultimately lead back to one source.

[newparadigms]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't know if there was a last straw. I've had hundreds of awakenings which gradually revealed various facets of the core truth that everything is my own mind.

I would not have been able to realize it without psychedelics. But also the psychedelic itself is not enough, you gotta seriously question and deconstruct everything.

In the end you realize that you are an Infinite Mind, and that's what reality is. This Infinite Mind can have no ground or outside of any kind since it is absolutely sovereign.

An infinity of Gods only exists in your Mind.

If you want to really be real for a moment, realize that nothing outside your mind has ever existed, nor will ever exist.

You can claim till you're blue in the face that Leo is dreaming you, but in absolute fact all you ever have is you dreaming Leo, and this will never be otherwise. If you say that Leo is dreaming you, you are dreaming that Leo is dreaming you. Which is just your dream.

You can try all sorts of clever ways to weasel your way out of this, but it will always just be your dream.

You will never find anything within existence other than you.

I agree with this, but couldn't this be a framework for a new understanding, that there are separate individuals? Just because you'll never experience what it's like to be the other outside of a you framework doesn't negate that there are others?

edit: i'm talking because I'm lonely and serious

Edited June 12, 2022 by newparadigms

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

Just like a flying spaghetti monster does not exist in this world as far as we can tell.. But who knows maybe it exists in some other dimension!

Again, the issue here is that you are imagining some "other" dimension. You keep creating other without realizing it. If you were fully awake there could be no other and no doubt about it.

Doubt means you're not awake.

Infinity has no outside, no beyond.

5 hours ago, Vincent S said:

It’s funny that you mentioned that. Because during my second LSD trip (and a few after that) Something similar was revealed to me. At the peak of these trips/realizations, I went above this Infinite Mind, and saw that it was Everything. But what made it more confusing, was that I was shown that there was something beyond this Infinite Mind. I looked up and It was pitch black. But I saw an opening of a tunnel in the far distant. As soon as I was approaching it, the peak subsided and I went back in to the mind, where this life was contained in.

But that begs the question: If it is an Infinite Mind: Why was I able to go beyond it and observe it from above? That would mean that there is something outside of this Infinite Mind or Maze of Everything.

Also wouldn’t be Infinite if it was seen from above, that would make it finite. Unless it has different layers of more Mind, inside of each other. Extending forever… Bubbles within Bubbles.

I have been able to break out of this Mind, a few times. Where I observed pure Infinite Void. Before hitting that Infinite Void, I passed Mind and entered that tunnel. But was only able to observe Formlessness and Nothingness, while being “there”.

Seems like you are just defining "mind" in a finite way. My definition of Mind is infinite and absolute. You can't go beyond it and it includes the infinite void of course.

Formlessness is part of Mind.

Notice that my definition is an absolute Unity, yours is a duality. Well, guess what, you are creating that duality by insisting on it.

2 hours ago, newparadigms said:

I agree with this, but couldn't this be a framework for a new understanding, that there are separate individuals? Just because you'll never experience what it's like to be the other outside of a you framework doesn't negate that there are others?

edit: i'm talking because I'm lonely and serious

See my above point about trying to weasel your way out of this. You can try. Notice how your minds uses every trick it can think of to create the possibility of other.

OTHERS ARE YOU!

[Vincent S]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Seems like you are just defining "mind" in a finite way. My definition of Mind is infinite and absolute. You can't go beyond it and it includes the infinite void of course.

Formlessness is part of Mind.

Notice that my definition is an absolute Unity, yours is a duality. Well, guess what, you are creating that duality by insisting on it.

Interesting points. Gives new perspective on what was seen. I'll contemplate that during next trips. Thanks!