Damage caused by spiritual content consumed by adolescents

[Philipp]

I will try to make this clear from the start. I am not really looking to blame Leo. I don't care that much for blaming Leo. But I care for acknowledging, discussing and sharing this perspective.

I think there can be considerable psychological damage, when adolescents 14-18, get drawn into the consumption of spiritual knowledge, especially enlightenment  ("Illusion of the Ego", "No self", " Selflessness", even spiral dynamics to a certain extant). But I guess I will just state my case and others can judge and share if this is something more general. 

Again I am not really looking for blame (even if the desire is there). I am looking for healing. 

I am 25 years old now and I started watching Leo almost from the start, so I guess I was somewhere in between 14-16. But I was immediately hooked. I had experienced self help before, but I found Leo I immediately saw that he went more in depth, was more right and was more serious about this all. So I really got into him. Not really sharing this with my friends, since I felt that Self Help was almost a tabu. So I started growing from the knowledge, I started understanding myself better, I started understanding others better, I had more success jumping over my fears, interacting with girls, it almost felt as if I had discovered a super power, no other kid knew about. 

But then the moment came, when "the videos will get deeper now". When Leo did not really want to stay on that psychological surface level, but actually wanted to share spiritual content. And as 16-19 yo men, whose role model was Leo, of course I was willing to get deeper with him. But I did not get the content. He suddendly said "The Ego is an illusion" "You don't even exist" and I couldn't make sense of that. I kind of knew it was true, because I trusted Leo a lot, but I had not a single experience, not even a glimpse of this realization. Also no others I interacted with, or who I knew about, had said such things, so I was even more in a conflict. Trusting Leo or trusting everybody else. And that also meant things like, trusting friends, trusting parents, trusting more basic self help coaches. The "Selflessness is the most beautiful thing" "Try to be selfless" was more understandable. But trying to be selfless at that age is so counterproductive. You need to grow at that age and in this society you need to fight for your place, you need to want things for yourself. If people don't get that you need to be selfish, when growing up, you don't understand how much this psyche is still in the making and that growth and acquisition is vital to create a positive foundation. So I was understanding that selflessness was something beautiful, I wanted to be it, (at to some extent it also worked), but to a bigger extant I think it made me hesistant to satisfy my needs. To satisfy my need for growth (not spiritual growth).  How things like spiral dynamics affected me is even more complicated. It made even more sense and I felt smart learning about it. But I realize that is also make you loose trust in other and especially superiors, if you know you have metaphysical map, which imcompasses their entire being and knowledge. But you can't get far on your own at that age and having some real life superiors, mentors, teachers your are aspiring to, is quite important. So I was basicly left with aspiring to become Leo. I lets be honest. there are so many stages between an 17-19 yo, and a enlightened 30 yo Leo. 

In the end I started distancing myself from spiritual content and Leo, but I this left me trusting no one. Even worse. I can't trust normal folks, because Leo showed me how full of shit they are. But I can't trust Leo, because his content isn't helping me anymore. I felt really disoriented. Instead of having focused on getting myself a first job I like, maybe gather some experiences abroad, I was obsessed with making sense of the world. Trying to understand how my ego is illusiory even though nothing in my experience could point to that. I was trying to master the advanced stuff and thought those basic material pursuits are bad. 

It was only later 23+ yo, that I started to get more that "You need a strong ego to transcend it"  and etc. But still this dirorientation is still to this day affecting me and really hindered my growth. Not trusting universities, lectures, seeing how weak science was. Seeing all the wage slavery and selfishness in people. I feel like I need to let go of and just live life like the the other unknowing humans. Have a certain naivity and believing I need more money to be happy or something like that.

It is hard to explain exactly how all this affected me. I cannot also really say to which extant it was responsible for all this suffering and lack of growth, because there are certainly also other factors. 

I am also certain that Leo warned often about these traps, but it must also be said that a person is not going to watch every video and may miss one where is explained better. Also uploading spiritual videos about the illusion of the ego, doesn't give you the feeling that he is actually considering this a trap, if you are not ready. And even if he puts a few disclaimer at the start, which kid doesn't watch the intriguing video from his role model, even if there are disclaimer before. 

I am not looking for blame, but I want to ask you guys: Is it the right thing to upload a mix aproachable self help stuff, and really deep metaphysical spiritual content on a platform like youtube, where there are so many kids. And kids aren't stupid. They can get into that stuff.

That's it. I am just wondering what you guys thing of the ethics /healthiness of this and if someone had similar experiences. 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, my videos can present serious challenges to youngsters. Advanced stuff. I will try more to warn of the dangers and traps.

Yes, you must master some of the basics of survival before you jump too deep into transcending survival.

Basically I assume if you watch my videos that you have handled the material covered in the LP Course. Those are the survival fundamentals. But of course most of you haven't done that. But also I cannot sit around waiting for you.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Michael Jackson]

Nice post @Philipp thanks for sharing!

[Aimblack]

Although I can't relate to your experience directly because Leo's content came at the exact right time for me ( I jumped in at the Mindfulness era because I wanted to learn how to meditate), I have also always wondered whether disclaimers are useful at all because the exact people who need them are the most likely to ignore them. Additionally, I often felt like Leo would frame certain topics in the most blunt and psychologically rattling way possible. But now I've kinda realized that Leo is kinda in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation because he can't individually address each of our own personal issues in a video. I mean his vids are already 2-3 hours long. So no matter what he says there will always be a group who will misunderstand his teachings or fall into depression and isolation. The question is not if it happens but how to limit the number.

[Razard86]

You: I will try to make this clear from the start. I am not really looking to blame Leo. I don't care that much for blaming Leo. But I care for acknowledging, discussing and sharing this perspective.

My response: You shouldn't blame anyone, blame stops you from seeing clearly so good job in not doing that. 

I think there can be considerable psychological damage, when adolescents 14-18, get drawn into the consumption of spiritual knowledge, especially enlightenment  ("Illusion of the Ego", "No self", " Selflessness", even spiral dynamics to a certain extant). But I guess I will just state my case and others can judge and share if this is something more general. 

My response: You see it as psychological damage because of how you are looking at it. In other culture children are taught this content at a young age. In modern science if a mystic has a vision by definition he/she is experiencing "psychosis." So yes from that perspective you are. Depends on how you look at it.

Again I am not really looking for blame (even if the desire is there). I am looking for healing. 

I am 25 years old now and I started watching Leo almost from the start, so I guess I was somewhere in between 14-16. But I was immediately hooked. I had experienced self help before, but I found Leo I immediately saw that he went more in depth, was more right and was more serious about this all. So I really got into him. Not really sharing this with my friends, since I felt that Self Help was almost a tabu. So I started growing from the knowledge, I started understanding myself better, I started understanding others better, I had more success jumping over my fears, interacting with girls, it almost felt as if I had discovered a super power, no other kid knew about. 

But then the moment came, when "the videos will get deeper now". When Leo did not really want to stay on that psychological surface level, but actually wanted to share spiritual content. And as 16-19 yo men, whose role model was Leo, of course I was willing to get deeper with him. But I did not get the content. He suddendly said "The Ego is an illusion" "You don't even exist" and I couldn't make sense of that. I kind of knew it was true, because I trusted Leo a lot, but I had not a single experience, not even a glimpse of this realization. Also no others I interacted with, or who I knew about, had said such things, so I was even more in a conflict. Trusting Leo or trusting everybody else. And that also meant things like, trusting friends, trusting parents, trusting more basic self help coaches. The "Selflessness is the most beautiful thing" "Try to be selfless" was more understandable. But trying to be selfless at that age is so counterproductive. You need to grow at that age and in this society you need to fight for your place, you need to want things for yourself. If people don't get that you need to be selfish, when growing up, you don't understand how much this psyche is still in the making and that growth and acquisition is vital to create a positive foundation. So I was understanding that selflessness was something beautiful, I wanted to be it, (at to some extent it also worked), but to a bigger extant I think it made me hesistant to satisfy my needs. To satisfy my need for growth (not spiritual growth).  How things like spiral dynamics affected me is even more complicated. It made even more sense and I felt smart learning about it. But I realize that is also make you loose trust in other and especially superiors, if you know you have metaphysical map, which imcompasses their entire being and knowledge. But you can't get far on your own at that age and having some real life superiors, mentors, teachers your are aspiring to, is quite important. So I was basicly left with aspiring to become Leo. I lets be honest. there are so many stages between an 17-19 yo, and a enlightened 30 yo Leo. 

In the end I started distancing myself from spiritual content and Leo, but I this left me trusting no one. Even worse. I can't trust normal folks, because Leo showed me how full of shit they are. But I can't trust Leo, because his content isn't helping me anymore. I felt really disoriented. Instead of having focused on getting myself a first job I like, maybe gather some experiences abroad, I was obsessed with making sense of the world. Trying to understand how my ego is illusiory even though nothing in my experience could point to that. I was trying to master the advanced stuff and thought those basic material pursuits are bad. 

My response: What you don't realize is all these things you think is bad are also good. You should not trust anyone above yourself. Not Leo, not myself, not your parents, not the President, etc.etc.  YOU ARE THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY OF YOUR LIFE. Your whole life you have given that authority away and followed the opinions and beliefs of others. At a certain point you need to take responsibility for your beliefs and go through and dissect every single one of them and CHOOSE for yourself what is true for you. Sadhguru had a profound statement which last year I disagreed with but recently this year I discovered was true. It is "You know NOTHING OUTSIDE OF YOUR DIRECT EXPERIENCE." So you are actually on the right track.

It was only later 23+ yo, that I started to get more that "You need a strong ego to transcend it"  and etc. But still this dirorientation is still to this day affecting me and really hindered my growth. Not trusting universities, lectures, seeing how weak science was. Seeing all the wage slavery and selfishness in people. I feel like I need to let go of and just live life like the the other unknowing humans. Have a certain naivity and believing I need more money to be happy or something like that.

It is hard to explain exactly how all this affected me. I cannot also really say to which extant it was responsible for all this suffering and lack of growth, because there are certainly also other factors. 

I am also certain that Leo warned often about these traps, but it must also be said that a person is not going to watch every video and may miss one where is explained better. Also uploading spiritual videos about the illusion of the ego, doesn't give you the feeling that he is actually considering this a trap, if you are not ready. And even if he puts a few disclaimer at the start, which kid doesn't watch the intriguing video from his role model, even if there are disclaimer before. 

My response: Role models are a trap. Every human trait that exists, exists within you. Whenever you look up to someone you are projecting onto them. You are projecting the positive traits WITHIN you and seeing them in the other person. This is a clue. You are only drawn to people who are more similar to you. Since Leo is talking about stuff that you like, you are drawn to his content. This means the traits that Leo exudes are traits that you admire within yourself. So when you see Leo display them, you fool yourself into thinking he has something you don't. As a result you put him on a pedestal and make him a role model. He becomes your light. This is the opposite projection we do when we demonize people and say we don't like them. That is us denying the parts of us they are showing us that we reject. So when you make someone a role model, its projection, and when you make someone into an enemy, demon, bad person in your mind you are projecting as well. This only happens because you think Leo is SEPERATE from you. If you truly understand what Spirituality is trying to tell you is this.... stop thinking Leo is superior...HE IS YOU. Stop LOOKING UP TO LEO HE IS YOU. All the positive traits that Leo displays are the same traits you have. So all those same looking up to you emotions you have for Leo...turn them inward towards you. You see...life is an infinite mirror, so there are an infinite number of ways to look at something. You can see something as good or bad depending on HOW YOU CHOOSE TO LOOK AT IT.

I am not looking for blame, but I want to ask you guys: Is it the right thing to upload a mix aproachable self help stuff, and really deep metaphysical spiritual content on a platform like youtube, where there are so many kids. And kids aren't stupid. They can get into that stuff.

That's it. I am just wondering what you guys thing of the ethics /healthiness of this and if someone had similar experiences. 

My response: Majority of the stuff Leo is bringing forth is ANCIENT KNOWLEDGE. Hinduism is the oldest religion so a lot of the those concepts are still taught. From the modern perspective this stuff is "bad." But as long as you hold onto that perspective you will never awaken. Everything in modern society is designed to turn you into a selfish, entitled, self-hating, addiction oriented, demonizer of life and others. Pay attention to the collective complaints that the "others" of humanity make and you will notice a trend. 

"Why does this happen to me." "I feel so alone." "Why is life so hard." "Why are people selfish." Etc. Etc. Spirituality teaches you, you are complaining about yourself. Take some responsibility and make the change you want to see in others in yourself. Stop looking up to people, everyone is your guide, but you are also their guide as well. So we all teach and learn from each other. So if this is true....then we are equal. Never believe something someone says completely, or reject it completely. So never become too open or close minded. Consider everything and only reject what is counter to your direct experience. But really really investigate it with an open mind so you are not just deluding yourself. 

So I get what you are saying...this content can make it hard to connect with others. But understand if you follow their path, you will wind up where they are mentally and emotionally. If they are where you want to be .... then sure you can take on their beliefs as your own. But if you see a path that leads to more empowerment and love of self. I'd take that one instead. But hey you are the authority of your life, so its your choice. YOU ARE SOVEREIGN.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Razard86

[Leo Gura]

@Razard86 @Aleister Crowleyy

More compassion, less self-righteousness.

[flowboy]

4 hours ago, Philipp said:

In the end I started distancing myself from spiritual content and Leo, but I this left me trusting no one. Even worse. I can't trust normal folks, because Leo showed me how full of shit they are. But I can't trust Leo, because his content isn't helping me anymore. I felt really disoriented. Instead of having focused on getting myself a first job I like, maybe gather some experiences abroad, I was obsessed with making sense of the world. Trying to understand how my ego is illusiory even though nothing in my experience could point to that. I was trying to master the advanced stuff and thought those basic material pursuits are bad. 

It was only later 23+ yo, that I started to get more that "You need a strong ego to transcend it"  and etc. But still this dirorientation is still to this day affecting me and really hindered my growth. Not trusting universities, lectures, seeing how weak science was. Seeing all the wage slavery and selfishness in people. I feel like I need to let go of and just live life like the the other unknowing humans. Have a certain naivity and believing I need more money to be happy or something like that.

It is hard to explain exactly how all this affected me. I cannot also really say to which extant it was responsible for all this suffering and lack of growth, because there are certainly also other factors. 

What you are saying basically, is: you want back in the Matrix

Which is totally understandable.

The content you refer to, is not suited for developing minds who can't see the nuance yet.

If you're for example prone to viewing things as either "bad" or "good", well you're going to make all sorts of unhelpful extrapolations, such as "ego is bad", and the idea that folks being full of self-deception means that you can't trust them.

I can see how that could easily happen at that age.

 

Instead of looking back, let's review where you are right now.

Do you have Maslow's basic needs met?

(do you have a good circle of friends, do you make enough money, is your love life satisfying, etc)

If not, let's just work on that.

What does your heart desire most, which is most urgent?

You can pursue money, sex or status any way you want to without feeling like you need it to be happy.

The belief that you need these things to be happy, has been broken.

That saved you 40 years of misery (in some people's cases)

But now you still have some basic needs that are unmet.

People you can trust around you.

What's stopping you from getting yourself those important basic things?

[Ulax]

Agreed.

Similar experiences myself.

I think something like IFS as a spiritual type practice would be a better alternative before jumping into full-fledged enlightenment, especially when young.

[Vision]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

My response: Role models are a trap. Every human trait that exists, exists within you. Whenever you look up to someone you are projecting onto them. You are projecting the positive traits WITHIN you and seeing them in the other person. This is a clue. You are only drawn to people who are more similar to you.

This is fucking gold. Thank you @Razard86

[Oeaohoo]

Yes I agree with you but to me this is the basic problem of postmodern society. It is not limited to Leo’s teaching or Actualised.

The purpose of initiation and ascetic practice in older society - the Kenosis or “emptying out” of Christian esotericism, the pursuit of the ultimate state of Fana or “annihilation in God”, together with the heavy emphasis on Submission and becoming a Slave of God (Abd) in Islam, and even the catharsis that Plato taught was attainable through the study of Mathematics and Philosophy, to name a few - was to prepare the initiate for the reception of the deepest truths. Any remaining karma and limited identity will be inflated drastically by the proximity to God, so it is generally necessary that this is purified early on in the spiritual journey.

The saints, sages and whatever else you want to call them of the past were aware that any given religion or social order is a very limited expression of ultimate truth, but they didn’t go around trying to subvert them; they understood that for most people customs and traditions are necessary. Even in the rare cases in which they deliberately blasphemed the social order (like Al-Hallaj in Islam, the “crazy wisdom” teachers of late-Vajrayana, and even Christ to a certain extent), they accepted their punishment as fully deserved. After all, to confuse the esoteric and the exoteric is a form of blasphemy.

Today, however, there is no initiation, and “we live in a society” has been an ironic meme for quite some time! Everything is a mess, the masses hate secrecy and don’t know what is best for them, and the usual spiritual laws which would attract the disciple to their master are broken, so the only way to distribute spiritual truths is to make them readily available to everybody and hope the idiots who will misunderstand them just pass you by!

 

[mmKay]

Yup. Spiritual content definitely is a potential pitfall for young people. I discovered actualized.org at 17 and now im 24 . My very authentic and congruent goal was to improve social skills, dating skills, self-esteem. 

My curious nature hooked me to Leo's content and my agenda was pretty much overwritten by his at that time ( as in what I find interesting) . 

I vividly remember scrolling on YouTube, seeing the title : spiritual enlightenment : the most shocking truth you will ever hear and my intuition instantly went " Not yet, leave this for later in my development ".

But i did watch it eventually and i fell down the rabbit hole. 

After barely making it out alive  and extensive mental and emotional chaos, the overarching result was extreme positive. At this point I may say I've won the inner game lottery , although my material life is seriously lacking ( still working on it). 

Sometimes I wonder how my life would have unfolded if I hadn't found Leo. Definitely I'd be way worse off. 

[Michael Jackson]

54 minutes ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

⁹³Will try to work on that aspect of myself.⁹³

@Aleister Crowleyy tf is wrong with you?? Why the numbers everytime you poop under peoples posts?

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

It was only later 23+ yo, that I started to get more that "You need a strong ego to transcend it" 

Well, if you watched the Spiral Dynamics videos, you would know that this is what Orange is all about.  Wanna get to Green?  Then become a selfish Orange asshole.  Where does Leo say to skip stages, or to "act" like a nice person?

 

5 hours ago, Philipp said:

Is it the right thing to upload a mix aproachable self help stuff, and really deep metaphysical spiritual content on a platform li

I've said this many times here.  It's a problem on the channel, and on the forum itself.  Leo's content attracts 1. Orange self help guys, and 2. Spiritual people.  Someone talks about spirituality here, and the Orange guys get annoyed.  But then the Orange guys just talk about pick up and the spiritual people are like "where tf am I?".

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Razard86 @Aleister Crowleyy

More compassion, less self-righteousness.

Lol Leo I am compassionate. I'm showing him another perspective. I understand his point of view. This stuff can be confusing depending on what perspective you are looking at. This work is also dangerous because you are deconstructing your belief systems, which is what grounds our reality. You do it enough....and your reality becomes groundless and you will leave the dream. 

So I get it. Just offering another perspective. From his vantage point I would feel the same way he does. Its like talking to a younger version of yourself. What would you tell them. I think he is completely fine honestly. Based on what he is saying he is on the right path. Fear is normal, this path is not for the faint of heart. We fear ourselves the most. It makes sense, when you feel finite of course you would fear the infinite.

P.S. Also Leo....learn to trust people cooking for you lol. *wink*

Edited June 10, 2022 by Razard86

[Oeaohoo]

@Michael Jackson 93 is the number of Thelema and “Love Under Will” in the original Aleister Crowley’s teaching. 93 is an abbreviation of Crowley’s core teaching (‘Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law’) so members of the O.T.O would often greet and dismiss each other with a simple “93”. Forgive me if you already knew this!

[Chrisd]

At 16 y/o when I started spirituality you couldn't get me off of this stuff, totally addicted. Unhealthy.

I would suggest age makes you look different at things, at 25 my perspective was yours, at 29 I look at it all as necessary steps.

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Chrisd

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Aimblack said:

Although I can't relate to your experience directly because Leo's content came at the exact right time for me ( I jumped in at the Mindfulness era because I wanted to learn how to meditate), I have also always wondered whether disclaimers are useful at all because the exact people who need them are the most likely to ignore them. Additionally, I often felt like Leo would frame certain topics in the most blunt and psychologically rattling way possible. But now I've kinda realized that Leo is kinda in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation because he can't individually address each of our own personal issues in a video. I mean his vids are already 2-3 hours long. So no matter what he says there will always be a group who will misunderstand his teachings or fall into depression and isolation. The question is not if it happens but how to limit the number.

Agree with everything you said but.....I think whatever happens is supposed to happen. We keep trying to alleviate pain...that is a bias. Pain is important. Pain makes things real, your pain is proof of your reality. If you didn't have pain....nothing would feel real. Pain is what grounds us here in the first place. And to leave this reality we have to face our pain.

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Vision said:

This is fucking gold. Thank you @Razard86

My pleasure, but speak for yourself your signature is FIRE!! I had a friend complain recently about people being lazy and I had realized one day that people are only lazy when they are confused. So your Signature is fire!!

[puporing]

@Philipp All valid concerns. I guess I would just add that, you were drawn to it for a reason, and I suspect you were ready to receive the material (no matter your "biological" age or life situation). Because if you weren't ready for it in a spiritual sense, it would not resonate and you would stop consuming (in most cases) and go back to whatever life you were living. 

However, like you say, the survival stuff still had to be taken care of just by sheer necessity. And when you haven't gotten a good handle on it yet things can seem even harder to do (imagine a very spiritually developed person having to work at a McDonald's or something). There's not an easy answer to survival and something everyone has to deal with and hopefully find ways to thrive than simply survive. 

Hopefully, you are on your way to cultivating a life that is in alignment with your spirituality. This would be more optimal and harmonious. The reason you're feeling this negativity is perhaps that you haven't yet found a way to live in alignment on the outer with the inner. But this gap can be closed. 

[The Mystical Man]

I can relate to this.

I think it's important to learn about spirituality from older and wiser people. I always recommend Adyashanti and Dr. Hawkins. They will bring you sanity and healing rather than confusion and damage. 

I also think that it's important to understand what selflessness really is. You can take care of all the survival stuff and still be committed to upholding the self-transcending values of truth, honesty, and integrity. That's simply a wise way of being in the world, and it can be adopted sooner rather than later. The idea that you first have to be selfish is false, because selfishness leads to problems; it's an unwise way of being, and it's not necessary to be that way to get a job. You can get a job from a place of wholeness. You don't have to be a fractured self to get a job. 

This is from the "Taking the One Seat" course by Adyashanti:

"Get your mode of being in the world oriented around the self-transcending love and wisdom of being, and you will experience life to be a rich, meaningful, creative and inspiring adventure. This does not mean that life will necessarily be easy; it means that it will fundamentally be experienced as rich, meaningful, creative, and inspiring. Excessive psychological suffering is a clear indication that one's mode of being in the world is in conflict with being and life as it is. Suffering is the feedback loop between you and life that tells you that your mode of being is misaligned, meaning that your values (literally what you value) and your beliefs are out of harmony with being, the underlying nature of both you and all of existence."

You can turn your contact with spiritual teachings into a liberating experience rather than an entangling experience. What is ego anyway? Here is a definition from the "No-Self" course:

"Ego is to be identified with one's inner psychology: self-referencing ideas, thoughts, opinions, judgments, storylines."

Do we need any of that garbage to survive? No. So we can drop it with relief and move on with our lives. 

"It is important to continue moving in positive, productive ways in your life, even in the light of resistance."

You said that you had success jumping over your fears. That was actually the beginning of true spirituality, because ego is fear. All the higher values of love, peace, and joy rest on the foundational value of courage. I hope you find the courage to trust life again. I wish you all the best.

Edited June 10, 2022 by The Mystical Man