What is the role of science/intellect/logic for God

[charlie cho]

Spiritual circles enjoy bashing on intellectuals, but with right reason. But I can't help but think those people like OSHO, Krishnamurti, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, and other well-known individuals were great intellects themselves. For example, Lao Tzu himself was a librarian for the Zhou Kingdom before he went on the mountains. If one reads Chuang Tzu's parables, you can immediately see this man, though he likes writing comedic parables, was a genius in prose, truly. Compared to many Chinese ancient classics, Chuang Tzu's writing style is too creative for us lay-man to comprehend. Confucius wrote difficult texts. His Annals of history is one of those books that are the most hardest to understand, but its mostly head-work. Chuang Tzu's writings are differentiated from Confucius's writings because of how much emotional intelligence is required to understand. Even in Chuang Tzu's parables, he logically deconstructs Confucius' stupidity, his demand for traditionalism, and makes us understand how unwise Confucius really was, but he does this not with logical prose, but in a way anyone can understand. Yet, one still needs a high-degree of emotional intelligence to understand Chuang Tzu. But still, most people understands Chuang Tzu even if they don't have much intelligence. 

But that is the genius of Chuang Tzu. Without his intellect, how can we expect him to create such great parables? Chuang Tzu was famous for having a monster-like intellect, comparable to Confucius. Yet, he was one of the intellectuals who loved to bash on the intellect, and his predecessors like Confucius. 

Again, OSHO was famous for having a massive intellect. He was a philosophy professor in one of the best schools in India. It was said that he read more than thousands of books before his 60s, when he quit reading any text. 

 The last and best example would be Pythagoras. 

What is the role of ideas, intellect, and logic for spirituality? 

 

To be honest, to me... at least, I don't see the difference between the intellect, heart, and the physical. I only see these three are intimately connected. 

Edited June 7, 2022 by charlie cho

[Oeaohoo]

That's because what it means to be an intellectual has become ever more degraded. The Ancient Greek word Nous, the Sanskrit word Buddhi, the Arabic word al-'āqīl are all words that refer to the intellect but they refer just as much to the faculty for spiritual discernment as that for profane knowledge. These were all associated with the Eye of the Heart or "Third Eye" which was beyond both the heart and the mind. Even in the medieval era, the intellect was understood primarily as an intuitive faculty.

It is generally necessary to pass through the mind, take it to its absurd and self-annihilating conclusion and finally realise its futility, a 'self-overcoming of the intellect' as Nietzsche referred to it. For example, while you are right that OSHO read very widely, he was very critical of intellectuals. He liked to call philosophy "fool-osophy" and constantly contradicted himself so as throw off people who listened only with the mind. Here is a typical passage from him:

Quote

All philosophers are playing with words. Sometimes there is immense beauty even in words, great poetry, logic, that you cannot deny. Nietzsche, Hegel, Kant, Bertrand Russell, Jean Paul Sartre, Jaspers or Martin Heidegger are pinnacles of intellectuality. You are bound to be impressed - but you are not going to be transformed. And to be impressed is to be enslaved. Unless a transformation happens, your slavery goes on deeper and deeper.

Friedrich Nietzsche or others are tremendously important, but they are not one with the whole. On the contrary, they are super-egoists - particularly Nietzsche. I love him, too. He has a tremendous insight into things; great revelations come through his mind. And he’s the one most neglected all over the world - perhaps out of fear, because once you are deep into Nietzsche, you cannot be the same person you have been before. Nietzsche is going to change you.

His thoughts are rational; his insights have no parallel in the whole history of philosophy but still, he is not a meditator. It is all mind.

And this is the distinction I would like you to remember: there have been two types of influences in the world, people who have changed millions of lives. One belongs to the mind - all the philosophers, all the thinkers; they have great genius as far as mind is concerned. But there is a different line of people like Gautam Buddha, Bodhidharma, Jesus Christ, Lao Tzu - these are not philosophers. What they are saying is not coming from the mind. It is coming from beyond the mind. They have put the mind aside.

To understand them, just intellect is not enough. To understand them, you will have to go on the same path as they travelled. 

Mind goes nowhere.

The body, heart and intellect are part of a unity which transcends all of them but that doesn't mean they aren't different on a relative level. Can you stub your intellect on the door-frame?

Edited June 7, 2022 by Oeaohoo

[Michael Jackson]

42 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

 What is the role of ideas, intellect, and logic for spirituality?

Not important.

Human intellect and logic is a limited thing and will completely fly out the window once you truly awaken.

However, you will realize an intelligence far beyond the human narrow way of thinking which stands at the core of all of creation.

[axiom]

2 hours ago, charlie cho said:

What is the role of ideas, intellect, and logic for spirituality? 

At some point, when it is realised that there is no end to this rabbit hole, the hollowness that arises can lead to seeking inwardly, and this can lead to awakening.

And thereafter they can be appreciated for their simple, entertaining beauty. Like shadows on the walls of Plato’s cave.

Edited June 7, 2022 by axiom

[gettoefl]

mind is but a simple machine for god to inspect itself

we're (self identifying as) god's eye-glasses and science helps make a little sense of these great sights

the world may not enjoy you but god certainly does

[Breakingthewall]

the mind of the greatest human genius is the same as the mind of a worm in relation to infinity. the mind must be silent if it wants to understand. understand that there is nothing to understand, only infinity. the mind can understand the finite, but the infinite cannot be understood (i think, for now, but I'd say that ), only understand that it is infinite, surrender the mind, and be it. for that you can be a genius or an illiterate with an iq of 50. the problem is that life gives us a thousand attachments and fears, barriers that trap us, and you have to be smart enough to realize it and remove them. So yes, given the nature of the mind, and the nature of society, you need to work hard and be quite smart, in addition to other things, as an integrity, to be able to get out of jail

Edited June 7, 2022 by Breakingthewall