Are Narcissists a Lost Cause?

[Vynce]

8 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Maybe try emphasizing this point a little more on this forum. Because the so called spiritually growing people here can't seem to love selfishness in others. Too much moralizing. Maybe they should re-watch your video "how to practice love - what does it mean to love?" 

 

Actually a good opportunity for you to practice love with them

[Razard86]

4 minutes ago, Vynce said:

Actually a good opportunity for you to practice love with them

Narcissists are a good opportunity for spiritual development. But I would still caution your exposure to them. Let's just say My Ex took some actions that almost contributed to my demise and showed little remorse. So they can be dangerous, I'd recommend limiting exposure. Love at a distance.

[Razard86]

Here Dr. Sam Vaknin's treatment of NPD he developed. He has had success with them.

https://www.omicsonline.org/proceedings/cold-therapy-for-narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-depression-98445.html

[gettoefl]

8 hours ago, Razard86 said:

This! That's how I was able to not demonize them. My Ex stole from me and cheated on me more than once, but I was able to sympathize because whenever you call her out for what she did....she would get a Deer in headlight look and her body would literally shake. My dad whenever you called him out for emotionally abusing my mother....he would just shut down.

People don't realize how messed up they are. If you wanted to torture them you could strap them to a chair and force them to watch all the pain they cause. They would literally try to gas light repeatedly. You force them to watch it long enough they would cry out in pain.

Their number one fear is being honest with themselves about their actions. I mean they REALLY FEAR IT. Nothing frightens them more. Its why they gaslight, to save themselves from their own reflection. 

Its funny the legend says Narcissus fell in love with his reflection. But in truth they can't stand their own reflection.

thanks for your powerful and penetrating insights in this thread, very much appreciated reading all this

it's not that narcissists fear being honest with themselves they in fact live in a parallel reality where a different version of truth resides

they genuinely have convinced themselves and believe they are the good guys in the whole narrative

they concoct what president trump use to label "alternative facts" whereby "there are good people on both sides of this dispute"

we are the good guys, they claim, yes we support white supremacists and law breakers but we are still decent at root, just trust me

[Razard86]

12 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

thanks for your powerful and penetrating insights in this thread, very much appreciated reading all this

it's not that narcissists fear being honest with themselves they in fact live in a parallel reality where a different version of truth resides

they genuinely have convinced themselves and believe they are the good guys in the whole narrative

they concoct what president trump use to label "alternative facts" whereby "there are good people on both sides of this dispute"

we are the good guys, they claim, yes we support white supremacists and law breakers but we are still decent at root, just trust me

They fear it, if you don't believe me....deconstruct every one of their arguments when they attempt to gaslight. If you do a good enough job they will flee you, or try to harm you to make it stop. They have to construct an alternate reality because of their fear. In truth all humans fear themselves, its why the shadow exists and why taking accoutability is so hard. It forces you to see your flaws, part of maturing is being able to accept all parts of yourself. Narcissist are the most judgmental humans, the problem is they cannot live up to their own standards. Since they fail to live up to their own standards they must face their own judgment and thus they flee. The irony is even though they gaslight and do all these things...you cannot run from yourself. So they still feel the shame.

The punishment for acting selfish in life, is YOU. Its why you shouldn't judge others, because then you must face your own judgment. Narcissists live in an internal hell and every single action they take reveals it. We can actually use them as way to see how close or far we are from our own narcissistic tendencies.

Here is some proof of their fear: Narcissists are very paranoid. They always feel like someone is scheming or up to something. It actually makes sense when you understand how identity works in psychology.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Razard86

[VioletFlame]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The core problem is that a person cannot change unless they really desire to change intrinsically.

Most narcissists don't see their narcissism as a problem, so changing them becomes impossible.

But if a narcissist developed a desire to change, they could change.

Trump is a good example. If he desired to change he could stop doing all the shit he does.

@Leo Gura Exactly. How can one change if they aren't even aware that they are in need of changing? Most narcissists are completely oblivious to their condition, which is one of the reasons why it is so stubborn to treat. Because it all boils down to a willingness for self-improvement, personal growth & development. And lack of awareness only causes more issues, because if the narcissist doesn't stay the same, they'll only get worse.

NPD is actually very common and most people are in denial that they have it, or that they at least experience a few of the ten traits/symptoms, which is why most people cannot empathize with a narcissist, because they are in denial of their own mild-severe narcissistic traits/tendencies/characteristics. They cannot understand because they refuse to understand themselves first. 

But there is a reason why narcissism is so ubiquitous. If one looks at the ten major traits more closely, they'll start to see that most of these traits are actually common responses to deep existential problems/dilemmas that I think most humans experience at some point in their lives. In other words, they're in a sense, and to an extent, admittedly relatable.

However, what tends to be less common is the "Dark Triad" (which contains the personality traits of Narcissism, Machiavellianism, & Psychopathy.) Trump is a really good example of the "Dark Triad". I wouldn't go as far to say he fits into "Psychopathy" perse, but a Machiavellian, for example, is someone who, almost obsessively, desires power, status, money, opulence, etc. They seem to disregard morality for their own personal gain. Like narcissism, they also exhibit extreme grandiosity, solipsism, and superficial thinking. Most importantly though, Machiavellianism refers to deception and the quality of being deceptive, conniving, and manipulative to reach one's goals. It is complete and utter callousness and exploitation of others. 

So if anything, I associate Trump not only with narcissism, but with the whole triad, particularly Machiavellianism.

On an end note, my philosophy is that most mental illnesses should be relatable. The goal is to develop and increase our capacity for empathy towards multiple types of individuals, struggling with various mental health issues. The higher our empathy (which is a cognitive skill), the more our perspective expands, especially in regards to human understanding. Empathy increases our ability to see things from multiple perspectives; to fit ourselves in multiple types of shoes, if you will. And I believe that the more we can understand our own palette of emotions and every side/fragment of ourselves, the more we can understand various types of people. We just need to learn how to be more impartial. 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, VioletFlame said:

@Leo Gura Exactly. How can one change if they aren't even aware that they are in need of changing? Most narcissists are completely oblivious to their condition, which is one of the reasons why it is so stubborn to treat. Because it all boils down to a willingness for self-improvement, personal growth & development. And lack of awareness only causes more issues, because if the narcissist doesn't stay the same, they'll only get worse.

NPD is actually very common and most people are in denial that they have it, or that they at least experience a few of the ten traits/symptoms, which is why most people cannot empathize with a narcissist, because they are in denial of their own mild-severe narcissistic traits/tendencies/characteristics. They cannot understand because they refuse to understand themselves first. 

But there is a reason why narcissism is so ubiquitous. If one looks at the ten major traits more closely, they'll start to see that most of these traits are actually common responses to deep existential problems/dilemmas that I think most humans experience at some point in their lives. In other words, they're in a sense, and to an extent, admittedly relatable.

However, what tends to be less common is the "Dark Triad" (which contains the personality traits of Narcissism, Machiavellianism, & Psychopathy.) Trump is a really good example of the "Dark Triad". I wouldn't go as far to say he fits into "Psychopathy" perse, but a Machiavellian, for example, is someone who, almost obsessively, desires power, status, money, opulence, etc. They seem to disregard morality for their own personal gain. Like narcissism, they also exhibit extreme grandiosity, solipsism, and superficial thinking. Most importantly though, Machiavellianism refers to deception and the quality of being deceptive, conniving, and manipulative to reach one's goals. It is complete and utter callousness and exploitation of others. 

So if anything, I associate Trump not only with narcissism, but with the whole triad, particularly Machiavellianism.

On an end note, my philosophy is that most mental illnesses should be relatable. The goal is to develop and increase our capacity for empathy towards multiple types of individuals, struggling with various mental health issues. The higher our empathy (which is a cognitive skill), the more our perspective expands, especially in regards to human understanding. Empathy increases our ability to see things from multiple perspectives; to fit ourselves in multiple types of shoes, if you will. And I believe that the more we can understand our own palette of emotions and every side/fragment of ourselves, the more we can understand various types of people. We just need to learn how to be more impartial. 

2 hours ago, VioletFlame said:

@Leo Gura Exactly. How can one change if they aren't even aware that they are in need of changing? Most narcissists are completely oblivious to their condition, which is one of the reasons why it is so stubborn to treat. Because it all boils down to a willingness for self-improvement, personal growth & development. And lack of awareness only causes more issues, because if the narcissist doesn't stay the same, they'll only get worse.

NPD is actually very common and most people are in denial that they have it, or that they at least experience a few of the ten traits/symptoms, which is why most people cannot empathize with a narcissist, because they are in denial of their own mild-severe narcissistic traits/tendencies/characteristics. They cannot understand because they refuse to understand themselves first. 

But there is a reason why narcissism is so ubiquitous. If one looks at the ten major traits more closely, they'll start to see that most of these traits are actually common responses to deep existential problems/dilemmas that I think most humans experience at some point in their lives. In other words, they're in a sense, and to an extent, admittedly relatable.

However, what tends to be less common is the "Dark Triad" (which contains the personality traits of Narcissism, Machiavellianism, & Psychopathy.) Trump is a really good example of the "Dark Triad". I wouldn't go as far to say he fits into "Psychopathy" perse, but a Machiavellian, for example, is someone who, almost obsessively, desires power, status, money, opulence, etc. They seem to disregard morality for their own personal gain. Like narcissism, they also exhibit extreme grandiosity, solipsism, and superficial thinking. Most importantly though, Machiavellianism refers to deception and the quality of being deceptive, conniving, and manipulative to reach one's goals. It is complete and utter callousness and exploitation of others. 

So if anything, I associate Trump not only with narcissism, but with the whole triad, particularly Machiavellianism.

On an end note, my philosophy is that most mental illnesses should be relatable. The goal is to develop and increase our capacity for empathy towards multiple types of individuals, struggling with various mental health issues. The higher our empathy (which is a cognitive skill), the more our perspective expands, especially in regards to human understanding. Empathy increases our ability to see things from multiple perspectives; to fit ourselves in multiple types of shoes, if you will. And I believe that the more we can understand our own palette of emotions and every side/fragment of ourselves, the more we can understand various types of people. We just need to learn how to be more impartial. 

 

Very well said. When it comes to the concept of the Dark Triad I tend to disagree with that concept. Mostly because I have never met a Narcissists that didn't engage in power games. I never understood the distinction of Machiavellianism, all a Narcissist cares about is their survival and the elevation of their self image via outside sources. Machiavellianism is essentially that. So it never made sense to me about the distinction.

Even more if you read the Prince which was written by Machiavelli if was more a collection of teachings about using certain tactics of the more unscrupulous around us when in a power game. It wasn't a teaching to go full self-absorption, but more a teaching to adopt the strategies in politics that helped you keep the most selfish of us from obtaining and maintaining political power.

The Dark Triad completely distorts his opinion as if Machiavelli was some evil genius by naming the desire to manipulate to gain power as his name sake. I'm sure he would roll around in his grave on that one. Also Psychopathy is more associated with impaired cognitive function. Essentially the part of the brain that is supposed to chemically bring forth feelings of love and empathy is basically short circuited or impaired. Whereas Narcissism and its close cousin Sociopathy are related to environmental experiential factors. 

Also I would argue that sociological environment of the United States, especially now in this social media generation creates narcissists. I believe there are narcissists who are formed from impaired arrested development in childhood, and those who have adopted belief systems that make them lower level on the spectrum functioning Narcissists.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Razard86

[Breakingthewall]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's actually pretty easy to empathize with a narcissist if you observe your own selfishness and self-bias. What is really the difference between him and you? It's a matter of degree.

I wouldn't say that. It is a question of quality, not quantity. the narcissist processes in another way. he is not selfish in the sense of survival, of having a big ego that wants everything for himself, but he has two egos. an embryonic ego that has stopped its development in childhood, and is terrified not to die but to show itself, and this ego feeds another false ego which it adorns with all sorts of worldly attributes and shows to the world. The narcissistic is a real artist of the performance.

I saw my father die, he had a 14-hour agony of suffocation. I perceived with absolute clarity that even at that moment he was performing for the public. Only in the last seconds did the real one appear. the strength required to do that is enormous. admirable in a way. Pity he couldn't use it in a better way. Was a smart man, powerful in his way. Maybe in next life

 

[Arcangelo]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I saw my father die, he had a 14-hour agony of suffocation

I hope one day I'll have the same pleasure.

[Seed]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:05 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Preety_India Personally I don't like the label narcissist and I rarely use it. Because to me narcissism is just a strong form of selfishness which is the human condition.

And yes, demonization of selfishness is itself selfish and self-defeating.

It's actually pretty easy to empathize with a narcissist if you observe your own selfishness and self-bias. What is really the difference between him and you? It's a matter of degree.

Love this. 

[VioletFlame]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:38 PM, Razard86 said:

 

Very well said. When it comes to the concept of the Dark Triad I tend to disagree with that concept. Mostly because I have never met a Narcissists that didn't engage in power games. I never understood the distinction of Machiavellianism, all a Narcissist cares about is their survival and the elevation of their self image via outside sources. Machiavellianism is essentially that. So it never made sense to me about the distinction.

Even more if you read the Prince which was written by Machiavelli if was more a collection of teachings about using certain tactics of the more unscrupulous around us when in a power game. It wasn't a teaching to go full self-absorption, but more a teaching to adopt the strategies in politics that helped you keep the most selfish of us from obtaining and maintaining political power.

The Dark Triad completely distorts his opinion as if Machiavelli was some evil genius by naming the desire to manipulate to gain power as his name sake. I'm sure he would roll around in his grave on that one. Also Psychopathy is more associated with impaired cognitive function. Essentially the part of the brain that is supposed to chemically bring forth feelings of love and empathy is basically short circuited or impaired. Whereas Narcissism and its close cousin Sociopathy are related to environmental experiential factors. 

Also I would argue that sociological environment of the United States, especially now in this social media generation creates narcissists. I believe there are narcissists who are formed from impaired arrested development in childhood, and those who have adopted belief systems that make them lower level on the spectrum functioning Narcissists.

@Razard86 Hey, thank you so much! So I can totally see what you mean and they are both very similar. Essentially, they share many of the same characteristics. They are not completely separate, but they are relatively distinct. But Machiavellianism does seem to be more complex and nuanced. 

So Machiavellianism contains characteristics from both psychopathy and narcissism. Specifically from "factor 1 psychopathy" and grandiose narcissism (arrogance, morbid envy, sense of entitlement, etc.) With psychopathy, it has factor 1 and factor 2. With factor 1 psychopathy, we see callousness, impassivity, lack of empathy, manipulativeness, etc. And with factor 2 psychopathy, we see characteristics such as impulsivity, irresponsibility, and even committing crimes.

One distinction, for example, is that a Machiavellian tends to be goal-oriented and skillful in strategic long-term planning, which is not a feature shown in narcissism. Also, their goals tend to be regarded as "evil" or immoral; so it usually involves a degree of criminality or cynical, misanthropic, and malevolent thoughts/beliefs/behaviors. Also, they are shown to have higher impulse control than a narcissist or psychopath. A Machiavellian is strong in this area in that they are capable of putting off rewards, which is something narcissists struggle with a lot. Narcissists actually display an attitude of impatience, of wanting all eyes on them, and everything to immediately fall into their laps; they crave immediate attention and instant reward.

Another distinction is with fantasy and desire. We see this with both narcissism and Machiavellianism, where someone desires power or status, except narcissists will usually desire fame and excessive admiration; whereas a Machiavellian does not and does not necessarily strive to be the center of attention. They actually prefer to be "in the shadows"; very discreet, sly, and deceptive and prefer to keep their intentions hidden. They value their anonymity more. In other words, with a Machiavellian, there are ulterior motives and very little communication as to why actions are being taken. And when someone is narcissistic, they are usually very clear about their intentions and it appears very obvious; they have difficulty obscuring their tactics. Also, a Machiavellian can appear nice and gregarious, and trusting on the outside, so there is a little more depth to their deceitfulness than with psychopathy and narcissism. And they are very much a part of the business world, and high in conscientiousness, but of course, are not typically attracted to those endeavors for the right reasons.  

A narcissist, however, can use Machiavellianism as an abusive tactic. And like narcissists, a Machiavellian can also use guilt and deep emotional components as a form of manipulation to gain something. So I guess we can say there are many degrees to narcissism but Machiavellianism is just a more extreme, detailed, or multi-faceted version of it. Overall, the Dark Triad is an intriguing construct and the way I interpret it is that Machiavellianism is like the umbrella, if you will, which seems to encompass elements or aspects of both narcissism and psychopathy. Or you could say narcissism is the umbrella, encompassing aspects of psychopathy and Machiavellianism; whatever floats your boat, really. Essentially, it's all relative and it all boils down to a disregard for morality for personal gain.

Machiavellianism also seems to correspond with ruthlessness, cynicism, and extreme Nihilism. Narcissism has some connection to criminality, but not as much as Machiavellianism and psychopathy does.

The Dark Triad is sub-clinical so it's not often studied in the mental health realm, but I personally think it should be..?

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by VioletFlame

[Leo Gura]

On 6/11/2022 at 0:33 PM, Breakingthewall said:

the narcissist processes in another way. he is not selfish in the sense of survival, of having a big ego that wants everything for himself

I disagree. A narcissist is just a huge ego that's trying to survive. What else is it doing but surviving?

Look at Trump. Everything he does is a function of surviving his own ass.

Quote

an embryonic ego that has stopped its development in childhood, and is terrified not to die but to show itself, and this ego feeds another false ego which it adorns with all sorts of worldly attributes and shows to the world. The narcissistic is a real artist of the performance.

I saw my father die, he had a 14-hour agony of suffocation. I perceived with absolute clarity that even at that moment he was performing for the public. Only in the last seconds did the real one appear. the strength required to do that is enormous. admirable in a way. Pity he couldn't use it in a better way. Was a smart man, powerful in his way. Maybe in next life

Ego likes to posture. That's not unique. It's a matter of degree. We all like attention.

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I disagree. A narcissist is just a huge ego that's trying to survive. What else is it doing but surviving?

Look at Trump. Everything he does is a function of surviving his own ass.

Ego likes to posture. That's not unique. It's a matter of degree. We all like attention.

On 11/6/2022 at 8:05, Leo Gura said:

 

well, ultimately it is. Degree makes quality. I would say that the characteristic of the narcissist is that he has lies at his core, while a non-narcissistic ego uses lies, but does not need to believe them himself. that is the difference in quality. but at the same time it is also of degree, since the ultimate nature of the ego is the lie. its existence is a lie. then, an ego that uses lies like trump and does not believe it, and admits to himself without problems that he is a son of a bitch, would have a lower grade than one who also needs to feel integral and lovable, morally superior. what happens is that the degree barrier between these two ways makes a great qualitative leap. the narcissistic ego will go into crisis if pushed. the non-narcissist will laugh in your face. The non narcissist has the possibility to trascend itself because he can face itself. The other, looks impossible except with years of intense suffering 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

non-narcissistic ego uses lies, but does not need to believe them himself.

When you realize how much you lie you will reconsider this distinction.

The ego is a ball of lies within lies.

[Breakingthewall]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

When you realize how much you lie you will reconsider this distinction

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

On 11/6/2022 at 8:05, Leo Gura said:

 

Yeah I Know it. I try to remove the lie from me, and I realize that behind one layer of lies, there is another. and all generate resistance. Now I think I hardly lie to myself, but two years ago I believed the same thing and from now on I realize that I had tons of pretense, half-truths, resistance, so I suppose that in two years I will think the same as now. the ego is a difficult labyrinth, because it has the capability of to hide things to itself

[gettoefl]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yeah I Know it. I try to remove the lie from me, and I realize that behind one layer of lies, there is another. and all generate resistance. Now I think I hardly lie to myself, but two years ago I believed the same thing and from now on I realize that I had tons of pretense, half-truths, resistance, so I suppose that in two years I will think the same as now. the ego is a difficult labyrinth, because it has the capability of to hide things to itself

narcissism is revisionism of history ... it is re-spinning everything per one's own lens ... its position defines what the truth is

what makes a narcissist different from the normal person is many people believe a narcissist 

they succeed in getting the past rewritten

normal person just gets dismissed as delusional since they are not as persuasive and smart

what's the difference between fact and fiction?

a good lawyer

Edited June 15, 2022 by gettoefl

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

what makes a narcissist different from the normal person is many people believe a narcissist 

I do not think it is like that. if I am sitting face to face with you having a beer, I try a genuine communication, with more or less success, trying to understand you and for you to understand me. to flow together. As I am far from perfect, I will do it with relative success and narcissistic touches will escape me. But if instead what I do is a performance where I'm selling you my character, having the need or see me reflected in a mirror , and you are the mirror , apart from being an unbearable pain in the ass and giving you a boring time, I'll be a narcissist.

You never tried sex with a narcissist? She is masturbating and you are the dildo

Edited June 15, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Razard86]

On 6/11/2022 at 3:33 PM, Breakingthewall said:

I wouldn't say that. It is a question of quality, not quantity. the narcissist processes in another way. he is not selfish in the sense of survival, of having a big ego that wants everything for himself, but he has two egos. an embryonic ego that has stopped its development in childhood, and is terrified not to die but to show itself, and this ego feeds another false ego which it adorns with all sorts of worldly attributes and shows to the world. The narcissistic is a real artist of the performance.

I saw my father die, he had a 14-hour agony of suffocation. I perceived with absolute clarity that even at that moment he was performing for the public. Only in the last seconds did the real one appear. the strength required to do that is enormous. admirable in a way. Pity he couldn't use it in a better way. Was a smart man, powerful in his way. Maybe in next life

 

No offense.....but that sounds like quantity to me. The ego is under an arrested development, it never full formed. So that is a degree, a degree of development. Now how that degree expresses itself, is its quality. So....yeah its degree. You cannot escape this you can call it the law of degrees if you want. Everything is on a spectrum, that spectrum is the very essence of creation and diversity. So yeah its degree.

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

No offense.....but that sounds like quantity to me. The ego is under an arrested development, it never full formed. So that is a degree, a degree of development. Now how that degree expresses itself, is its quality. So....yeah its degree. You cannot escape this you can call it the law of degrees if you want. Everything is on a spectrum, that spectrum is the very essence of creation and diversity. So yeah its degree.

I'd say quality is in intention. the narcissist intentionally tends to lie. the non-narcissist tends to the truth. He wants it, even though he fears it and sometimes behaves more narcissistically than the narcissist. This is degree too? Could be, at the end everything is. 

But not, i think that a narcissistic person can stop being one if he changes his desire to lie for a desire for truth. I think it's a quality. a level 1500 ego can be less narcissistic than a level 1000 ego. what happens is that his fear is greater, but his tendency is positive, while the other is negative

Edited June 15, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[The0Self]

Anyone who does self-investigation with authenticity can be far happier and less problematic to others. Research says that generally, when someone with cluster B PD (NPD, APD, HPD, or BPD) self-reflects successfully, if they are to eventually become PD-free, they make a stop on the way at avoidant personality disorder for a while. Makes sense. They're probably disgusted and ashamed by their behavior.