Are Narcissists a Lost Cause?

[Zeroguy]

@Razard86 Sounds like:

narcissists.org

Did I got it right?

[Loba]

@Razard86 You must have never had to deal with a real one.

I'm healed from them, that's why I don't offer them any of my juju juice.

If you wanna think I am one, go for it, no skin off my nose dude.

[Loba]

@Zeroguy Bingo was his name-o.

[Razard86]

15 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You see what you want to see. Here is something you don't know, if you demonize a narcissist what does that make you? Sam Vaknim even said that. He said a clue that you are a narcissist is if you demonize them. I don't know if you realize, but narcissists turn others into them. They are parasitical. If you are not careful you will start to think like them. To demonize a narcissist is to become them.

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

@Razard86 You must have never had to deal with a real one.

I'm healed from them, that's why I don't offer them any of my juju juice.

If you wanna think I am one, go for it, no skin off my nose dude.

I dealt with a Narcissist my whole life. My Dad was one and the last relationship I was with one. Its not think...I know. You don't understand what Narcissism is based on your responses. All Narcissism is just egoism. So with that in mind we all have narcissism within us. Its a spectrum. Any psychologist would tell you that. So...if you demonize somebody for having something in you that makes you just as guilty as them.

Leo did a whole video on this. A tell tell sign of a Demon, is one who demonizes others. Sam Vaknim said that you if demonize a Narcissist then you are one. 

Who does the ego do? Says I am good, but they are bad. What do Narcissists do? They take no responsibility for their actions, but love telling others they need to take responsibility for their actions. Narcissists are self-righteous, Narcissists avoid accountability, Narcissists love to put others down to feel good about themselves. Now explain to me how a person who operates like this IS NOT SUFFERING?

You really have no clue how they work. Narcissists are hypocrites to the extreme. Do you even know what projection is? My gosh there would be too much to educate you on right. Just understand that nobody suffers more than Narcissists because they hate their reflection. 

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You see what you want to see. Here is something you don't know, if you demonize a narcissist what does that make you? Sam Vaknim even said that. He said a clue that you are a narcissist is if you demonize them. I don't know if you realize, but narcissists turn others into them. They are parasitical. If you are not careful you will start to think like them. To demonize a narcissist is to become them.

Absolutely. You understand the narcissism very deeply. I spent my teenage years trying to be a narcissist. I can tell that this leads to levels of suffering and isolation that are no joke. I realized it, and it took time to stop hating. all the hatred that was in me was exactly proportional to the narcissism that was in me. now I think of my father with sympathy, pity, really. At the time, this would have seemed completely impossible. the twist of my mind to achieve it was beyond what I could see. I had to give up narcissism. it is not something that can be explained or understood in words. It's a very strange twist of yourself, of the reality 

[Loba]

@Razard86 You don't understand... no you don't understand... I don't feel the need to turn this into a heated debate.

This isn't a "who's been abused by a narc more" conversation.

I've dealt with them, I know 'em well enough - just because you think you have a better answer than me doesn't negate what I went through - but I'm over it.

Some narcs suffer.  Most do not.  But by all means, have pity for them.  You can take what would be my pity, because I have none.

Also, yikes, you're kind of over-emotional here, don't you think?

Also, good for you, for knowing so much about the disorder, here's a gold star.  *pinches your cheek*  Bye bye now.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Loba

[Razard86]

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

@Razard86 You don't understand... no you don't understand... I don't feel the need to turn this into a heated debate.

This isn't a "who's been abused by a narc more" conversation.

I've dealt with them, I know 'em well enough - just because you think you have a better answer than me doesn't negate what I went through - but I'm over it.

Some narcs suffer.  Most do not.  But by all means, have pity for them.  You can take what would be my pity, because I have none.

Also, yikes, you're kind of over-emotional here, don't you think?

Also, good for you, for knowing so much about the disorder, here's a gold star.  *pinches your cheek*  Bye bye now.  

1. Saying no you don't understand is not an argument you are not even making any points. Seriously.

There is not a single Narcissist who doesn't suffer shame, or guilt. The fact that you think there are shows you do not understand how human psychology works. You do not understand the underlying themes and motivations that push individual and collective human behavior. If you did you would know why Narcissists do what they do. How much have you studied the topic? What are the common causes associated with people who have this issue? These are all questions you do not have. Why? Because it is MUCH EASIER TO DEMONIZE SOMETHING THAT HARMS YOU WHICH IS A NARSISSISTIC TRAIT.

A non narcissistic trait is an attempt to understand what causes something. If the world world took your approach to narcissism with every other personality disorder then the mental health field wouldn't exist. But no, because your individual pain is so important you deny the existence of the pain of narcissist. You refuse to understand them, and you demonize them. All you have shown on this forum is that when you talk about Narcissists you become one when discussing them. This is why I said they are parasitic. If you do not have a strong foundation, a narcissist will turn you into one.

So yeah you can continue the snide comments, but all you are doing is revealing the Narcissist inside of you. So continue to be self-righteous and demonize them, you are only displaying the same behavior they do. Which is exactly what they want.

[Matt23]

I think "lost cause" is very context dependent.  Like, if you are a regular person and end up dating a narcissist... and perhaps you feel connection and love with them... it might be wiser to exit that relationship.  But, on the other hand, if you are a specialist who works specifically with narcissists, then obviously it's less of a lost cause and you'll probably end up helping them over the long haul.

Some interesting ideas I've come across on narcissism:

• Everyone can be narcissistic, which differs from narcissistic personality disorder.
• Narcissistic characteristics (egotism, lashing out, manipulation, lack of empathy, etc.) can be seen as defense mechanisms for an extremely vulnerable, frightened, low self-esteemed, and insecure core self concept.  
• I've heard there's strong correlations between having an anxious-avoidant attachment style (low self-worth and low trust in others). 
• There are many types of narcissism, including grandiose to more vulnerable styles, as well as more introverted to more extroverted styles.  With someone being more introverted and vulnerable exhibiting characteristics similar to the borderline personality disorder group and the more extroverted and grandiose styles being more akin to psychopathy. 
• Another fascinating thing I discovered described how people with narcissism, or a particular type of narcissism, can and do feel great empathy for others and the world.  But only at a distance (so, perhaps alone contemplating the suffering of the world, seeing a war break out on tv, or hearing of environmental destruction).  Yet, when they interact with people around them, friends, family, neighbors, etc., that empathy goes out the window.  So this can trip people up, even narcissists, since they seem to care greatly, but when faced with reality and others directly, all that care drops away and the frustrations, lack of concern for others, lack of patience, and egocentrism takes over.  

Edited June 10, 2022 by Matt23

[Razard86]

23 minutes ago, Benton said:

@Razard86 This has been true for me. I had a friend a while back who over time I realized was very narcissistic. I demonized the shit out of him and even fantasized about hurting him after finding out some things be had done like stealing money from his roommate who is also my friend, lying constantly and sleeping with multiple 15 year olds. One of whom was the roommates sister. This guy was driven away from the friend group and I haven’t seen him since. I left the friend group later too. I fell into a “I hate people and they are untrustworthy mindset.” The following months I lied so much. So much. I was so manipulative too. My parents saw me and said I was a different person. I had nobody else in my life at the time and I was fortunate enough to have them tell me straight up how I was acting. And in junior high I hated people with those qualities and exhibited quite a few myself. Probably the time in my life my ego was at it’s worst.

Spirituality/non judgmental perspective is what pulled me out of the mindset to varying degrees on both counts. But first I had needed someone to let me know how I was acting. 

My grandpa on one side is a narcissist   and my grandma on the other is also one. I also demonized them because of how they treated my parents to an extent.

It is the periods of my life when I have hated these qualities that I exhibit them the most.

Self Acceptance is necessary for dealing with our inner narcissist. The unconditional allows for all without entanglement. All is one.

Going meta on the mindset and the thoughts I have about the mindset also helps. Goes hand in hand. Learning about karma from Sadhguru’s book has helped me with the meta mindset.

 

Peace and love brotha, and thank you for sharing you’re insights.

Its why I keep saying life is a mirror. I learned about the mirror concept from an ancient Eastern proverb and when I started applying it it WOKE ME THE HELL UP.  The irony is in science they discovered that we have what is called "mirror" neurons. Much of human psychology reveals that we like to mimic. Babies do it, toddlers do it, and even as adults we do it. This is why there are fads. 

But the concept goes deep....its the deepest concept I have ever found. The mirror concept makes almost all logic relative with only a few Truths being absolute. Its my favorite concept because it shows the folly of all perspectives. We can only see one perspective at a time. So we need to learn to broaden our perspective otherwise...our ability to experience life and learn becomes limited. Its not easy...but its the only path towards self-acceptance. 

Selfishness= narcissism Love of self

selflessness= martydom Love of self

These are spectrums. You go too far in either direction and that is what happens. The irony is both are expressions of self love, its just the definition of what is self is different. 

The martyr sees the self as all.

The Narcissist sees the self as themselves.

That is the only difference. Someone asked Sadhguru what is the greatest evil. He replied "Limited identity." 

Whatever you view as yourself you will defend and protect. Whatever you view as "other" you will fight and resist. We live in a world that is constantly trying to create more divisions. After awhile it starts to feel natural and normal. So then we normalize conflict and demonization of anything we don't identify as. Once you realize this you can transcend it. Transcend it doesn't mean you won't engage in it, you just won't take it seriously.

Because you realize it for what it is....just a game. Its basically a game of tag. We can call it demon tag if we want.

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, Matt23 said:

Another fascinating thing I discovered described how people with narcissism, or a particular type of narcissism, can and do feel great empathy for others and the world.  But only at a distance (so, perhaps alone contemplating the suffering of the world, seeing a war break out on tv, or hearing of environmental destruction).  Yet, when they interact with people around them, friends, family, neighbors, etc., that empathy goes out the window.  So this can trip people up, even narcissists, since they seem to care greatly, but when faced with reality and others directly, all that care drops away and the frustrations, lack of concern for others, lack of patience, and egocentrism takes over.  

Narcissistic have not empathy for others and the world. Pretending that is one more facet of his character. what happens is that they themselves believe that they have great empathy for the misfortunes of the world. They can even cry, help the poors and be holy missionaries like Teresa of Calcuta, and they themselves think they are saints, but everything is focused on their character. their capacity for self-deception is masterful, it seems incredible that they don't have moments to think: how can I be such a faker? but they don't think so because their wounded little/huge ego absorbs all their attention. If you had your foot smashed with a hammer, everything would revolve around that foot. I wouldn't care about the rest, you just want that foot to stop hurting. You could have some moments of real emphaty, but you the pain absorb everything. All is related to themselves. that happens to narcissists 24/7/365. they are cursed. And they don't know that they are narcissistic. They only wants that that ego stops hurting, and for that they need you

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

7 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Once you realize this you can transcend it. Transcend it doesn't mean you won't engage in it, you just won't take it seriously.

Yeah that sums things up... One can still find love for just about anyone.. it can be great fuel for increasing your capacity to love if you accept the challenge. It's just a big ask of most now, so we shouldn't demand people to love anyone (including "narcissists"). That all has to come from within. Healing and some distance apart from so-called "narcissists" seems to help with that.. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by puporing

[Leo Gura]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:10 PM, SQAAD said:

Do you think that narcissists are a lost cause?

The core problem is that a person cannot change unless they really desire to change intrinsically.

Most narcissists don't see their narcissism as a problem, so changing them becomes impossible.

But if a narcissist developed a desire to change, they could change.

Trump is a good example. If he desired to change he could stop doing all the shit he does.

[Preety_India]

@Leo Gura can you control some of the demonization of narcissists that recurrently happens in such threads. It's a bit too much. Literally public lynching. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Preety_India Personally I don't like the label narcissist and I rarely use it. Because to me narcissism is just a strong form of selfishness which is the human condition.

And yes, demonization of selfishness is itself selfish and self-defeating.

It's actually pretty easy to empathize with a narcissist if you observe your own selfishness and self-bias. What is really the difference between him and you? It's a matter of degree.

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

And yes, demonization of selfishness is itself selfish and self-defeating.

Maybe try emphasizing this point a little more on this forum. Because the so called spiritually growing people here can't seem to love selfishness in others. Too much moralizing. Maybe they should re-watch your video "how to practice love - what does it mean to love?" 

 

[Proserpina]

Narcissists are immature service to self.  They've made a conscious choice to serve themselves and they recognize a part of reality to be God but they do it in a way where they lose in the end and suffer.  

If they realised that harming others,  harms themselves,  which they do eventually because they are polarised,  they would stop.  

[The Mystical Man]

Every ego has traits of the ten personality disorders. Every ego is narcissistic and histrionic. We just don't label people as such unless it's a severe case of narcissism. When someone does get labeled as a narcissist, is he a lost cause? If it's a really severe case, probably yes. Transfiguration is possible, but difficult and unlikely. It's very difficult to make even the simplest of changes. And sometimes people go too far to the dark side to change. Look at Vader. In a sense, he redeems himself, but he still dies as a broken man. Narcissism is the pathway to tragedy. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by The Mystical Man

[Preety_India]

11 minutes ago, The Mystical Man said:

Every ego has traits of the ten personality disorders. Every ego is narcissistic and histrionic. We just don't label people as such unless it's a severe case of narcissism. When someone does get labeled as a narcissist, is he a lost cause? If it's a really severe case, probably yes. Transfiguration is possible, but difficult and unlikely. It's very difficult to make even the simplest of changes. And sometimes people go too far. Narcissism is the pathway to tragedy. 

This is good

[Razard86]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Preety_India Personally I don't like the label narcissist and I rarely use it. Because to me narcissism is just a strong form of selfishness which is the human condition

And yes, demonization of selfishness is itself selfish and self-defeating.

It's actually pretty easy to empathize with a narcissist if you observe your own selfishness and self-bias. What is really the difference between him and you? It's a matter of degree.

This! That's how I was able to not demonize them. My Ex stole from me and cheated on me more than once, but I was able to sympathize because whenever you call her out for what she did....she would get a Deer in headlight look and her body would literally shake. My dad whenever you called him out for emotionally abusing my mother....he would just shut down.

People don't realize how messed up they are. If you wanted to torture them you could strap them to a chair and force them to watch all the pain they cause. They would literally try to gas light repeatedly. You force them to watch it long enough they would cry out in pain.

Their number one fear is being honest with themselves about their actions. I mean they REALLY FEAR IT. Nothing frightens them more. Its why they gaslight, to save themselves from their own reflection. 

Its funny the legend says Narcissus fell in love with his reflection. But in truth they can't stand their own reflection.

[Ulax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6rSXTSUbGc

Here are theories by some prominent psychodynamic-inclined therapists.