Question For Leo

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, puporing said:

You can assess to a degree. It's about deconstructing all of your beliefs, concepts, conditioning, self-biases, fears, etc. That's actually potentially a lot to "clean up" which is why I used that analogy. 

Then when you truly feel "empty" of those, your true nature will start to penetrate your awareness more and more, to the degree you can let go of the above. This was the point I took a psychedelic. 

See my edit from earlier too.

But this is pretty good. How do you know that you are really deconstructing and not deluding yourself?

When I was trying to do what you wrote, I feel like I am actually surrendering and letting some stuff go, but there's still an anxiety about whether i'm doing it right.

It definitely feels very significant. Why did you offer me this insight?

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Consilience How can you doubt genetics but believe in reincarnation?

Did he doubt it? 

[Gesundheit2]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Did he doubt it? 

Maybe not here, and maybe not in the sense that genetics don't exist. But I am certain that I saw him more than once undermining the role of genetics in spiritual work.

[Consilience]

7 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Consilience How can you doubt genetics but believe in reincarnation?

The same way I can doubt scientific materialism but “believe” in qualia. One is belief, one is direct experience. 
 

Direct experience of past lives, direct experience of the moment by moment birth death/expansion contraction process of a self being created by mind along with the recognition that this activity of mind is not contingent on this physical body. This activity of mind is the “mind of god”, utterly beyond body or the contents of mind; it is a western fantasy, belief system, system of indoctrination that death means this mind ceases. The individual self “ceases” as all memories, feelings, sensations of me and mine vanish, but this is not the mind, this is not the context out of which existence appeared. That context is unaffected by physical death.
 

Studying dependent origination provides a framework for why a single death would not end the cycle of birth and death. Direct experience verifies it. 
 

Edit: also where did I say I doubt genetics exactly? This is a complex topic, way more nuanced than “I believe in genetics” or “I doubt genetics.”

Edited June 4, 2022 by Consilience

[Salvijus]

Basicly the question can be altered into: how to grow faster?

1) follow high quality instructions. Like that of Jesus or Buddha or Sadhguru

2) dedicate yourself to the process. It works but only if u do it. Your own resistence is your biggest enemy.

From my personal observation u have tendency to run away or resist something the moment something starts to really threathen your ego. 

"A person can be a seeker of truth for lifetimes, but if avoidence is at the root of it, he's not going to get it"

Edited June 4, 2022 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

There are many enlightened beings who have children and brothers and sisters and those relatives are not enlightened. Wouldn't that debunk the genetic theory?

Plus all the ancient scriptures say it's about one's energetic evolution or smth. Some kind of esoteric explanations are there that determine one's spiritual evolution and potential. I like this explaination more personally.

People who effortlessly pop into enlightenment are usually not because of genetics but because the soul has been refined through a lot of practice in previous lifetimes. That's is a common explaination found spiritual texts.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Salvijus

[Maka]

12 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Watch this. It will light a fire within you. https://youtu.be/U-WQivX7SBI

The causal factor behind everything is Love. Some people use the word care which is just a sustained form of love. Love is life giving energy. When you pay attention to something you are loving it and giving it power. Even fear is an expression of love. What you fear you love. How do we know this? Because to fear something is to revere something. What does that mean? When you fear something you believe it to be more powerful than you. Because of that power you feel less in comparison. Reverence is a sign of respect, and whatever you respect....you love. So you love whatever you fear. And this is why our fears have so much power....because we give it to them.

Hey man this is my first time replying to you, I really enjoy reading your posts and comments, really loved your awakening post

but Fear ≠ Love, don’t put it this way because you can be misguided

some people can induce fear into you to get respect but is that the same respect you give to those who love you? 

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Maka said:

Hey man this is my first time replying to you, I really enjoy reading your posts and comments, really loved your awakening post

but Fear ≠ Love, don’t put it this way because you can be misguided

some people can induce fear into you to get respect but is that the same respect you give to those who love you? 

Fear is love. The way reality works is it is an infinite mirror. When you study anything long enough you will ultimately realize that everything turns around on itself. This is what it means to be absolute infinity, everything is infinite and I do mean everything. Why do you fear? What is fear? Fear is a result of feeling less than. Fear is a belief that something outside of you is more powerful. To fear something you must revere it, you must respect it. If you revere it, if you respect it, then you also love it. 

You ever wonder why someone takes revenge when they are a victim? This is because initially they were in an disadvantageous situation and were not in control. So what did they say? If only I had the power....then I would show them. You fear what you most desire, which is control. Fear is a belief you lack what you most desire which is control. 

The only way to stop fear, is to release your desire for control. So this is how fear turns in onto itself and is merely an expression of love, the love to be in control. You see? Fear= love. The problem is...when you study anything....it always turns out like this. Its a freaking infinite loop which is the proof that all distinction is an illusion. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Razard86

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

There are many enlightened beings who have children and brothers and sisters and those relatives are not enlightened. Wouldn't that debunk the genetic theory?

This is actually a good point. Totally obvious too… not sure how I never thought of this or no one’s mentioned it haha. 
 

It’s wild how incessantly the ego will go to avoid spiritual practice. Also wild how arrogant the ego is to think it understands spiritual practice without actually having dived in and explored. Imagine an undergrad freshman biology major thinking it knows more than a biologist with a PhD claiming that of this study and experimentation is useless, a waste of time, and won’t go anywhere towards understanding biology. 

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

There are many enlightened beings who have children and brothers and sisters and those relatives are not enlightened. Wouldn't that debunk the genetic theory?

This point actually goes against you. If you seriously investigate the families of spiritual people you will find members in their family lineage who were spiritually gifted.

Genetics is not some simplistic thing.

Enlightenment is so rare that it's like expecting Michael Jordan's children to also be world-famous basketball players. That's not likely to happen. But there is no doubt Michael Jordan was perfectly genetically suited to play basketball and his children will get some of those genes.

And it's not like two enlightened people ever fuck. This is extremely rare.

It's obvious that spirituality is genetic because you cannot do spirituality as a dog. The only reason you can meditate is because you have the right genes for it. And if you didn't have the right genes no amount of meditation would ever help you.

[Gesundheit2]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

There are many enlightened beings who have children and brothers and sisters and those relatives are not enlightened. Wouldn't that debunk the genetic theory?

Not really.

37 minutes ago, Consilience said:

This is actually a good point. Totally obvious too… not sure how I never thought of this or no one’s mentioned it haha. 
 

It’s wild how incessantly the ego will go to avoid spiritual practice. Also wild how arrogant the ego is to think it understands spiritual practice without actually having dived in and explored. Imagine an undergrad freshman biology major thinking it knows more than a biologist with a PhD claiming that of this study and experimentation is useless, a waste of time, and won’t go anywhere towards understanding biology. 

Dude, just stop! What do you even know about genetics? Do you understand how inheritance works? Do you know that there are two types of genes? Do you know that just because my grandmother's eyes were blue does not mean that my eyes should necessarily be blue?

For more info: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/genes-and-genetics

[Consilience]

25 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Not really.

Dude, just stop! What do you even know about genetics? Do you understand how inheritance works? Do you know that there are two types of genes? Do you know that just because my grandmother's eyes were blue does not mean that my eyes should necessarily be blue?

For more info: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/genes-and-genetics

Yes, obviously. Ive taken multiple biochemistry classes in university discussing genetics, one focused on molecular genetics. I have a bachelors of science in nutritional science. 
 

The point is that even though, for example, a being on the path to enlightenment may have a certain genetic makeup based on their mother and father, this doesn’t mean the mother and father are on the path, or ready for the path. What goes into taking on and succeeding with enlightenment is so much more multifaceted than to reduced it to some materialistic framework like “genetics.” Not only is this a gross simplification within the materialistic framework, completely ignoring things like epigenetics, volition, will, the fact that the brain is the most malleable organ in the human body, but it ignores other possibilities, substances not yet discovered through scientific investigation, such as chakras, the energy body, etc. 

The point is when attempting to explain away spiritual success with the “genetics” argument is, when rationally and clearly examined, completely illogical and nothing more than an egoic defense mechanism. Do genetics play a role? Yes obviously. The question is to what extent and what are the precise factors to awakening and what constitutes the availability of these factors? Claiming genetics as the basis is a misunderstanding of these factors and marred in lack of direct experience as well as an openmindedness about the possibilities of what creates the experience of being a human at all.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Consilience

[puporing]

11 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I feel like I am actually surrendering and letting some stuff go

You're on the right track.

11 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

is there really something to unknowing?

Of course. Because your idea of how things work is likely not the way it actually is. At least create the possibility that you don't actually know anything and have been taking things on by faith, by delegating your authority to "others". 

Let go of the stuff you've been "taught" and find out the truth for yourself - you have all the answers within.

[bambi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

This point actually goes against you. If you seriously investigate the families of spiritual people you will find members in their family lineage who were spiritually gifted.

Genetics is not some simplistic thing.

Enlightenment is so rare that it's like expecting Michael Jordan's children to also be world-famous basketball players. That's not likely to happen. But there is no doubt Michael Jordan was perfectly genetically suited to play basketball and his children will get some of those genes.

And it's not like two enlightened people ever fuck. This is extremely rare.

It's obvious that spirituality is genetic because you cannot do spirituality as a dog. The only reason you can meditate is because you have the right genes for it. And if you didn't have the right genes no amount of meditation would ever help you.

How could two enlightened people fuck lol, theres only ever one enlightened person, no?

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Do genetics play a role? Yes obviously.

Glad that we agree on this.

Quote

The question is to what extent and what are the precise factors to awakening and what constitutes the availability of these factors?

It's hard to say.

In my current view of things, that extent varies between people, so it's not the same for everyone. You might be more genetically inherently predisposed for awakening while others not at all. So, genetics are first order. And second order would be environment. Then practice and everything else (including education, perspective, limiting beliefs, etc.).

I think that there's a range of importance to consider here as well. Some people's genes might have a major effect on them, and others not so much, while others (most people I would say) somewhat fairly. So there's some flexibility in there, and not everything is 100% determined. At least not everything is determined on the second order level, but only on the first order level. We might say that there's a general genes flexibility factor that differs from one person to another, which might or might not have the same value (levels of importance) when it comes to specific skills or functions. Like maybe your genes are flexible in regards to spiritual work, but not to sports. Or maybe they're flexible in all areas.

Also, there's an obvious difference between being born normal vs. handicapped vs. superhuman. Someone born with legs is different from someone born without any. And they're both different from someone born with legs that are made for running.

Like you said, it is a huge and complex topic, and I have actually written a better and more detailed reply but lost it to error 403 on posting.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Raptorsin7]

@puporing When I say to myself I don't know it seems like I can feel the effect in my head. But there's still a sense of resistance and like I'm missing something.

To summarize your point what would you say?

Right now I'm thinking just contemplate what it means to not know, and contemplate surrender. 

[Carl-Richard]

I think this genetics debate is really just about how much hope/doubt you have that you yourself will be enlightened one day (it's just a proxy for self-efficacy). Without any statistically rigorous empirical data, it's mostly just speculation muddled by bias.

[Gesundheit2]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I think this genetics debate is really just about how much hope/doubt you have that you yourself will be enlightened one day (it's just a proxy for self-efficacy). Without any statistically rigorous empirical data, it's mostly just speculation muddled by bias.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Personally, I couldn't care less about "my personal enlightenment" anymore. I'm just sharing my thoughts for the sake of it.

And obviously, data is important, but its absence should not stop us from having this conversation. Maybe someone will find it helpful. Maybe upon reading this convo, someone will decide that their genes are not good enough for enlightenment and then give up the search. Who knows?!

Plus, genetics is broader than enlightenment. So whatever applies to it generally should logically apply to enlightenment.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I disagree wholeheartedly. Personally, I couldn't care less about "my personal enlightenment" anymore. I'm just sharing my thoughts for the sake of it.

Ok if you don't want to go that far, still the thing is that this conversation does not penetrate deeper than "genetics" as a blanket term for things that you cannot control. There are really no specifics (at least so far), because that would require science, which is most likely non-existent on this issue.

[Salvijus]

Some beings don't even have a body and they are enlightened in a the subtle body. Like Jesus for example.

If that doesn't debunk genetic theory, I don't know what will ? tho im not against the genetic theory. It makes some sense. But it doesn't answer the problem fully for my taste. 

Ramana Maharsi was able to enlightened a cow also. That's a nice debunk right there also.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Salvijus