"Your hand is imaginary"

[Loba]

"Reaching out."  Get it?

 

[Inliytened1]

On 6/4/2022 at 3:55 AM, ZzzleepingBear said:

You can imagine that it is imaginary...

But you probably wouldn't hold it over a flame for to long though.

Only because you don't want the dream to end.  And for it not to end you have to survive in this form.   It's gonna be extremely painful to stop dreaming intentionally because you put yourself deep within it.

[ZzzleepingBear]

19 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Only because you don't want the dream to end.  And for it not to end you have to survive in this form.   It's gonna be extremely painful to stop dreaming intentionally because you put yourself deep within it.

I know right. But to claiming the opposite is nothing more than brave talk. So I'm kinda curious to what purpose it serves to resort to all these bold claims that waking up is going beyond pain and suffering.

Do you want the dream to end if I may ask?

[Inliytened1]

11 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

I know right. But to claiming the opposite is nothing more than brave talk. So I'm kinda curious to what purpose it serves to resort to all these bold claims that waking up is going beyond pain and suffering.

Do you want the dream to end if I may ask?

Pain and suffering are part of being finite. (Part of the dream).  Awakening is stepping outside the dream.  Here you will reach Infinite Intelligence and Understanding - and this is liberation because you see through your finite pain and suffering and transcend human form.  That's what awakening gives you.  Then you can return to human form and be at peace.   Pain and suffering no longer have the same affect.  What you have to be careful about though, is forgetting you ever awoke.  Which is how you fell asleep in the first place.  God has the innate ability to forget its God - hence it is able to manifest suffering and pain into a reality.

[ZzzleepingBear]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

Pain and suffering are part of being finite. (Part of the dream).  Awakening is stepping outside the dream.  Here you will reach Infinite Intelligence and Understanding - and this is liberation because you see through your finite pain and suffering and transcend human form.  That's what awakening gives you.  Then you can return to human form and be at peace.   Pain and suffering no longer have the same affect.  What you have to be careful about though, is forgetting you ever awoke.  Which is how you fell asleep in the first place.  God has the innate ability to forget its God - hence it is able to manifest suffering and pain. 

I mean, it sounds great.. But "stepping outside the dream". This is quite a hazy claim dont you think? What practical steps are you even able to make out of this description of awakening?

Do we even know what transcending human form would be good for if that was the goal? 

 

[WelcometoReality]

22 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Right.

You covered both aspects here to which I agree with. So I guess my arguing point is that the imaginary realization is heavily dependant on ones level of acceptance of any pain itself.

Totall ingnorance of pain, would make for a dysfunctional life from a bodily perspective. So there is where my critique of calling everything or anything illusory are besed on. We engage within the world despite it's illusory nature.

If we acknowledge that the world is fundamentally illusory, then what more wisdom could we derive at from repeting the already obvious nature of things. If we get badly wounded, we may accept the pain, so that we do not suffer from the infliction of pain itself. But we don't just call it imaginary and leave it at that, we act and treat the wound as if it was real.

There's two ways to go after that realization. Embracing or renouncing the world. There are examples of both. 

Jesus embraced it.

Ramana Mahashi was more of the type that renounced it. He would probably have died if he hadn't been taken care of by others.

Those are the extreme examples of course. Everyone will need to find there own path.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

I mean, it sounds great.. But "stepping outside the dream". This is quite a hazy claim dont you think? What practical steps are you even able to make out of this description of awakening?

 

Meditation.  Sit staring at something on yout wall for a week and see what happens.   The problem is no one does it.

[ZzzleepingBear]

1 hour ago, WelcometoReality said:

There's two ways to go after that realization. Embracing or renouncing the world. There are examples of both. 

Jesus embraced it.

Ramana Mahashi was more of the type that renounced it. He would probably have died if he hadn't been taken care of by others.

Those are the extreme examples of course. Everyone will need to find there own path.

Ok. So Embrace or renounce the world.. Sounds like flipping a coin if you ask me. But what do I know. 

[ZzzleepingBear]

59 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Meditation.  Sit staring at something on yout wall for a week and see what happens.   The problem is no one does it.

Yeah I could do that if I feel like it is important for some reason. But this sounds like lazy advice to avoid straight forward questions tbh.

[RMQualtrough]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Meditation.  Sit staring at something on yout wall for a week and see what happens.   The problem is no one does it.

What did you experience when you did this?

[WelcometoReality]

35 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Ok. So Embrace or renounce the world.. Sounds like flipping a coin if you ask me. But what do I know. 

Why does it sound like flipping a coin?

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Meditation.  Sit staring at something on yout wall for a week and see what happens.   The problem is no one does it.

[ZzzleepingBear]

1 hour ago, WelcometoReality said:

Why does it sound like flipping a coin?

Because you presented two opposite options without context to why you should choose any of the two, and how those could be put into any sort or meaningful practice.

To embrace the world could mean to eat pizza once in a while. And to renounce the world could mean that you don't eat pizza sometimes despite that the world keeps creating pizza everyday.

I'm aware of the silliness of my example. But my point is that there is a unlimited amount of blanks for me to fill in, if I want to derive some sort of meaningfulness out of your reply that the world is either to embrace or renounce.

So if I where to follow your advice, and choose anything you mentioned. I might just flipp a coin since there is no particular intent to why you would do one thing over another, or even how to do it.

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Because you presented two opposite options without context to why you should choose any of the two, and how those could be put into any sort or meaningful practice.

To embrace the world could mean to eat pizza once in a while. And to renounce the world could mean that you don't eat pizza sometimes despite that the world keeps creating pizza everyday.

I'm aware of the silliness of my example. But my point is that there is a unlimited amount of blanks for me to fill in, if I want to derive some sort of meaningfulness out of your reply that the world is either to embrace or renounce.

So if I where to follow your advice, and choose anything you mentioned. I might just flipp a coin since there is no particular intent to why you would do one thing over another, or even how to do it.

I was just stating two extreme cases because we were talking about the illusiory nature of the world.

I'm not saying you should renonce the world. Pizza is too good imho.  ? 

This wasn't meant as advice and perhaps it was a bit reckless of me to talk about such things.

[ZzzleepingBear]

9 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I was just stating two extreme cases because we were talking about the illusiory nature of the world.

That's fine to mention. But if there is no explicit reason for why you bring them up in the first place, then it's not much different than mentioning two different fruits for no particular reason.

9 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I'm not saying you should renonce the world. Pizza is too good imho.

Exactly. But why bring up renouncing the world then, if that is not part of your own experience or understanding?

15 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

There's two ways to go after that realization. Embracing or renouncing the world. There are examples of both.

Each to their own, but casualy mentioning different ways with little to no personal experience to back any claim. Makes for a very futile conversation wheter this or that is true or not.

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

This wasn't meant as advice and perhaps it was a bit reckless of me to talk about such things.

This seems to be the first thing you mentioned that is of your own direct experience, and I respect that.

[WelcometoReality]

 

On 2022-06-04 at 7:36 PM, ZzzleepingBear said:

If we acknowledge that the world is fundamentally illusory, then what more wisdom could we derive at from repeting the already obvious nature of things. If we get badly wounded, we may accept the pain, so that we do not suffer from the infliction of pain itself. But we don't just call it imaginary and leave it at that, we act and treat the wound as if it was real.

9 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

That's fine to mention. But if there is no explicit reason for why you bring them up in the first place, then it's not much different than mentioning two different fruits for no particular reason.

I mentioned it because of what you wrote above. If it's not helpful then leave it aside. 

9 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Exactly. But why bring up renouncing the world then, if that is not part of your own experience or understanding?

Neither you nor I are talking about direct experience here. We're talking about conceptual knowledge and that may or may not be derived from my own experience. You are assuming it's not but  you don't know which do you?

Perhaps this is all projection on you part.

 

[ZzzleepingBear]

2 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I mentioned it because of what you wrote above. If it's not helpful then leave it aside. 

Sure will.

2 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Neither you nor I are talking about direct experience here. We're talking about conceptual knowledge and that may or may not be derived from my own experience. You are assuming it's not but  you don't know which do you?

I am talking about direct experience, so if this is only conceptual knowledge for you, that you are interested in then that's on you. But don't assume that I rule out direct experience from what is suppose to be covering a holistic approach, just because I mention things such as mental states.

I have to assume alot of what you have been trying to say, since you don't explain why you bring random things up even though they may fit the overal topic. And no, I don't know if you speak of experience since you don't seem to want to explain your own line of thinking when you bring things up.

2 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Perhaps this is all projection on you part.

How else would I be able to engage with you if I where not projecting my thoughts?

[WelcometoReality]

 

35 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Sure will.

I am talking about direct experience, so if this is only conceptual knowledge for you, that you are interested in then that's on you. But don't assume that I rule out direct experience from what is suppose to be covering a holistic approach, just because I mention things such as mental states.

I have to assume alot of what you have been trying to say, since you don't explain why you bring random things up even though they may fit the overal topic. And no, I don't know if you speak of experience since you don't seem to want to explain your own line of thinking when you bring things up.

How else would I be able to engage with you if I where not projecting my thoughts?

If you want to talk about direct experience then go deeper into it.

What I mean is that you don't know what I am talking about so your projecting that onto me and saying that I don't know what I am talking about. 

But this discussion has degraded into some sort of quarrel which I have no interest in.

Enjoy yourself and good day! ?