Ultimate musical improvisation/creativity

[Carl-Richard]

They say that good music keeps you at the edge between familiarity and surprise. Too familiar becomes boring, and too surprising becomes hard to follow. Musical improvisation is the manifestation of this in real time, and you can usually notice when the player is engaging in well-established/familiar patterns ("licks") and when the player is creating something completely original.

I'm used to improvising a lot on guitar, and I've noticed that I'm able to imagine impossibly intricate and original lines of improvisation in my head, but I'm in no way technically advanced enough to manifest that through my instrument. When I listen to the most complete virtuostic improvisational players out there, even though they can come very close many times, I always feel a tension between boredom and impenetrability.

Of course, this desire I have of hearing the most hyper-creative lines of notes that I can possibly imagine is impossible to fulfill. It's completely relative to my unique conception of music, and I would probably never in a million years get to hear somebody produce even 10 seconds of those exact notes (which would be absolutely transcendentally orgasmic if it happened).

Nevertheless, I know two players who come extremely close, and I'll try to weigh to which extent they're too "boring" ("musically conventional" is a better word) or too impenetrable (too melodically or harmonically complex) relative to my impossible standard of imaginative perfection.

 

Guthrie Govan (obviously). It's tricky, because he is so versatile that he often fluctuates between too conventional (like bluesy bendy stuff) and too complex (like jazzy shredding stuff). I'll give an example for each player:

 

Allan Holdsworth is notoriously known for being impossible to imitate by other players. For reference, Guthrie Govan can imitate virtually anyone but him. He often becomes too complex. I sometimes have to listen to his songs 30 times to understand what he is doing (like the run at 1:28 in the video below).

(Btw things become more interesting around 0:40).

 

[Loba]

Kali King:

 

[Asayake]

Didn't know you were into jazz fusion, awesome! As far as guitar goes I think Alan Holdsworth is perhaps the most alien player ever. Personally I prefer players that are more like Guthrie though, I think the conventional stuff offers a nice context for the more out there stuff while Holdsworth is more out there all the time. With that being said Holdsworth is a monster.

I would say Cory Henry of Snarky Puppy(whom I've seen live). Check out Lingus for a killer solo. He's a keyboard/organ player. Absolutely insane player. There are so many insane solos from him on YouTube.

Another one that comes to mind is John Coltrane (his solos in A Love Supreme.. they just get better and better, are super innovative and unconventional). Saxophone master.

Honourable mention for me is Jeff Beck, guitarist with very unique style(solo 2:56): https://youtu.be/VC02wGj5gPw

 

But as far as guitar goes Scott Henderson(whom I've also seen live with his trio) is my candidate(solo starts 4:30, amps up 5:27), he has his own unique style: 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Asayake

[Oeaohoo]

The more you improvise the more you should be able to immediately identify the notes you want to play. I mostly play piano so this is a little bit easier (as it is easier to visualise and conceptualise intervals and scales) but it should be true for guitar too. Obviously improvisation will always be limited by the degree of technical virtuosity that you currently have. I don’t think there’s anything that can be done for that except unfortunately mechanical practice routines. Time to dust off the inner robot!

I don’t quite agree with you about the boredom and impenetrability thing. I can see why you would feel those things listening to someone like Holdsworth but only during his weaker performances. Like you said, good music keeps you at the edge between familiarity and surprise, and Holdsworth made some great music. I never really liked Guthrie Govan, but Holdsworth has an excellent album called I.O.U. I also like his songs “Funnels”, and the improvisation on “Non-Brewed Condiment” is phenomenal.

Now I understand your description: “To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery”!

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Now I understand your description: “To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery”!

Omg it makes sense ?

 

23 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

The more you improvise the more you should be able to immediately identify the notes you want to play. I mostly play piano so this is a little bit easier (as it is easier to visualise and conceptualise intervals and scales) but it should be true for guitar too. Obviously improvisation will always be limited by the degree of technical virtuosity that you currently have. I don’t think there’s anything that can be done for that except unfortunately mechanical practice routines. Time to dust off the inner robot!

Yeah, but one problem with mechanistic practice is that it's easy to fall into "easy solutions" (licks, scale runs etc.), exactly because you've practiced them. I guess the way out is to either practice only very rundamentary movements or practice an impossibly huge variety of things to a point where things start to melt into each other.

That said, the type of shit I'm able to imagine is pretty inhuman from a technical standpoint, not in terms of "computational density" (as Zappa once said), but simply sheer originality. I think it's generally not compatible with the mandatory constraints of learning an instrument and the prototypical modes of learning (licks etc.) that one has to internalize, at least in the beginning, and that always stick with you to some extent.

For example, you can virtually always identify a blues-inspired line or a jazz-inspired line. That has to boil down to technique at some point. Even purely self-taught players will have to emulate music they've heard before, unless they're raised in a black box.

 

27 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

I don’t quite agree with you about the boredom and impenetrability thing. I can see why you would feel those things listening to someone like Holdsworth but only during his weaker performances. Like you said, good music keeps you at the edge between familiarity and surprise, and Holdsworth made some great music. I never really liked Guthrie Govan, but Holdsworth has an excellent album called I.O.U. I also like his songs “Funnels”, and the improvisation on “Non-Brewed Condiment” is phenomenal.

Well, I should say that I can easily sit back and relax and appreciate all kinds of music, stripping away different conceptual layers, expectations etc. It's really only when I compare it to that inner perfectionism that I sometimes tap into that I feel that tension, which nowadays is not often (it was much worse before). Sometimes I just need something catchy and groovy like Tool.

I really like I.O.U. in that it's generally more accessible, same with Wardenclyffe Tower.

[Oeaohoo]

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Yeah, but one problem with mechanistic practice is that it's easy to fall into "easy solutions" (licks, scale runs etc.), exactly because you've practiced them. I guess the way out is to either practice only very rundamentary movements or practice an impossibly huge variety of things to a point where things start to melt into each other.

That said, the type of shit I'm able to imagine is pretty inhuman from a technical standpoint, not in terms of "computational density" (as Zappa once said), but simply sheer originality. I think it's generally not compatible with the mandatory constraints of learning an instrument and the prototypical modes of learning (licks etc.) that one has to internalize, at least in the beginning, and that always stick with you to some extent.

Of course but you have to start somewhere. Once you have the increased virtuosity, you should be able to apply it to new patterns. Both of those ways out sound like they would be effective.

Maybe you should transcribe a little segment of the inhuman stuff you imagine and try your best to play it. Repeat that enough times and maybe you would learn to improvise it?

Also, your post reminded me to listen to this again: 

Great fun!

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Maybe you should transcribe a little segment of the inhuman stuff you imagine and try your best to play it. Repeat that enough times and maybe you would learn to improvise it?

Oh god, I would probably be better off trying to "sing" it, record it and play it by ear. I can't transcribe for shit ?

 

11 minutes ago, Oeaohoo said:

Also, your post reminded me to listen to this again: 

Great fun!

Hahaha when he runs into that guy at the end and he doesn't give a shit ?

[Carl-Richard]

@Oeaohoo I just got into Dixie Dregs, and the fast stuff in this song (e.g. 2:16 and onwards) is pretty much the type of stuff I'm imagining, kinda like for reference, but it's still not it ?

 

 

[Oeaohoo]

56 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Oh god, I would probably be better off trying to "sing" it, record it and play it by ear. I can't transcribe for shit ?

That’s all I really meant by transcribe. Whatever works for you.

Haha, 0:48 of the the song you sent is very over the top. It reminds me of the other option, which would be to record something slowly and then speed it up. I used to do this sometimes with guitar things, it can sound quite interesting!

[Carl-Richard]

I think this is my favorite Allan Holdsworth song (not for any of the reasons above). Pretty chill.

 

[Oeaohoo]

@Carl-Richard Interesting song, hadn’t heard it before. It reminds me of this (beautiful intro and outro!): 

Listening to Holdsworth, I always feel it’s a shame he didn’t branch out a bit more into other genres. His stuff all seems to be very locked within the heavy jazz fusion sound world.

[Carl-Richard]

OMG I just discovered The Mars Volta. It's like everything I like mixed into one thing 

 

[integral]

On 6/2/2022 at 7:02 PM, Carl-Richard said:

 

 

Its for the players enjoyment not the listener, getting carries away in ones self amusement. Its subjective i get it, I feel less is more, do all these extra notes add anything? 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, integral said:

Its for the players enjoyment not the listener, getting carries away in ones self amusement. Its subjective i get it, I feel less is more, do all these extra notes add anything? 

If you have trouble keeping up, try slowing it down  People who complain about too many notes usually just struggle with hearing all the notes. What Guthrie is playing is the cream of the crop in terms of creativity.

[Eternal Unity]

@Carl-Richard ❤️ Holdsworth and Guthrie

Edited July 17, 2022 by Eternal Unity

[Grateful Dead]

What you are describing is exactly what the Grateful Dead are known for. You should check them out, they never played a song the same way twice. It's always fresh and new.

Someday when I have the time and I'm bored enough I'm going to make a huge Grateful Dead topic and hopefully some of you guys will check them out because you're all missing out

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

On 6/3/2022 at 0:02 AM, Carl-Richard said:

They say that good music keeps you at the edge between familiarity and surprise. Too familiar becomes boring, and too surprising becomes hard to follow. Musical improvisation is the manifestation of this in real time, and you can usually notice when the player is engaging in well-established/familiar patterns ("licks") and when the player is creating something completely original.

I'm used to improvising a lot on guitar, and I've noticed that I'm able to imagine impossibly intricate and original lines of improvisation in my head, but I'm in no way technically advanced enough to manifest that through my instrument. When I listen to the most complete virtuostic improvisational players out there, even though they can come very close many times, I always feel a tension between boredom and impenetrability.

Of course, this desire I have of hearing the most hyper-creative lines of notes that I can possibly imagine is impossible to fulfill. It's completely relative to my unique conception of music, and I would probably never in a million years get to hear somebody produce even 10 seconds of those exact notes (which would be absolutely transcendentally orgasmic if it happened).

Nevertheless, I know two players who come extremely close, and I'll try to weigh to which extent they're too "boring" ("musically conventional" is a better word) or too impenetrable (too melodically or harmonically complex) relative to my impossible standard of imaginative perfection.

 

Guthrie Govan (obviously). It's tricky, because he is so versatile that he often fluctuates between too conventional (like bluesy bendy stuff) and too complex (like jazzy shredding stuff). I'll give an example for each player:

 

Allan Holdsworth is notoriously known for being impossible to imitate by other players. For reference, Guthrie Govan can imitate virtually anyone but him. He often becomes too complex. I sometimes have to listen to his songs 30 times to understand what he is doing (like the run at 1:28 in the video below).

(Btw things become more interesting around 0:40).

 

   For me lately, the best type of musical practice and improvisation, is free style rapping, about any topic, and without any musical beats, acapella. It's very practical to do it this way for me, at any point in the day when you have 5-10 minutes to either beat box or free style rap acapella, because there's little excuses of not doing it.

   Then, overtime, you can design constraints in your music practices, like for me it's maybe to internal rhyme every line possible, do doubles or triples every line, or to rhyme with one theme only, if it's say about games it's words closely associated to games only. Or to beat box while free styling, or to finally include musical instruments, and so on.

    No clear purpose as to why I lately do this, I just do it as my latest hobby.  

[Rob06]

It was mentioned already, but this is absolutely my fav jazz fusion solo ever. Perfect combo between nice blues lines, and than going all the way into hyper-space-mode, while staying perfectly in that groovy vibe

 

[Nilsi]

I think in the same sense that all philosophy ultimately leads you to the conclusion that Plato was right, all guitarists ultimately lead you to the conclusion that Hendrix was in fact the best

On a more serious note, I think this one is pretty impressive:

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Nilsi

[Carl-Richard]

Just posting this here because it's my favorite Camel song and it doesn't exist on Spotify anymore ?