Circumventing chains of causation to awakenings

[Matthew85]

Since all of the different methods we utilize to have insights and awakenings are being imagined by us to justify a shift in our state, there should be an even more direct route. We should just as easily be able to circumvent or bypass all these steps we create and just experience the shift now. We are already awakened and imagining that we aren't. Have any of you had success in bypassing any chains of causation? If so, how did you achieve it? Was is just a matter of intention, conviction and focus? 

[axiom]

@Matthew85

46 minutes ago, Matthew85 said:

Have any of you had success in bypassing any chains of causation? If so, how did you achieve it? Was is just a matter of intention, conviction and focus? 

You are asking how to bypass the illusory chains of causation by using a method. Any apparent method necessarily involves reinforcing those chains.

 

[Matthew85]

@axiom Good point. A better way of saying it is a more direct method. All change is an instant change even when we create the illusion of many steps in the process. We could just as easily skip all the steps. 

[axiom]

@Matthew85

You have recognised that the steps are illusory, and now you are asking how to skip them. The answer is to stop looking for the steps.

[Chrisd]

3 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

We are already awakened and imagining that we aren't. 

How do you know?

[Focus]

3 hours ago, axiom said:

@Matthew85

You have recognised that the steps are illusory, and now you are asking how to skip them. The answer is to stop looking for the steps.

There are no steps

[Focus]

How come you forgot psychedelics anyway?

[Matthew85]

@axiom Thank you! Can you share more about your success in achieving this? 

[Matthew85]

2 hours ago, Focus said:

How come you forgot psychedelics anyway?

@Focus I didn't. I was including them in the chains of causation. 

[Rokazulu]

This is the whole of ancient Zen lineages.
I ask the same, and I see no one with any answer.

There are those that will say, "You can't skip any steps". Gradual Enlightenment.
Yet, others will point to how you could sit on a cushion and meditate for aeons, and receive nothing positive as a result.
Sudden Enlightenment. This emphasizes something very important to the subjective condition.

The idea is that even if someone came along and gave it to you.
You may not be able to take it.
Like a car that zooms pass your window, before you can even glimpse the make.

If you ever come across some sort of technique, you will have done what mystics have only dreamed of accomplishing, since the beginning of our divide.


 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Rokazulu

[axiom]

8 hours ago, Matthew85 said:

@axiom Thank you! Can you share more about your success in achieving this? 

Each time a character switches itself off it seems to lose some of its power, but you cannot control anything the character does. In fact the more you associate with the character the further away you get.

[Matthew85]

20 hours ago, Chrisd said:

How do you know?

@Chrisd I became aware of this during expanded states of consciousness. 

[Matthew85]

@Rokazulu As my awakenings became deeper, I realized I actually had never done a spiritual practice or taken a psychedelic. These were just things I had imagined to explain or justify experiencing an insight or expanded state of consciousness. If that is the case, then I should be able to circumvent these imagined processes and steps and just experience the state now. 

[Rokazulu]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:16 AM, Matthew85 said:

@Rokazulu As my awakenings became deeper, I realized I actually had never done a spiritual practice or taken a psychedelic. These were just things I had imagined to explain or justify experiencing an insight or expanded state of consciousness. If that is the case, then I should be able to circumvent these imagined processes and steps and just experience the state now. 

Anything is possible, not everything is probable.

I assume if you haven't experienced that state now, it is because something in you— doesn't want the immediate experience, despite what is in you that does. Some call this a necessary gradual ascension. In other words, the body needs to prepare itself by building up the necessary conscious energy to take on the enormous vibration, of which you speak.

Then the probability of an instant shift becomes much more likely.
 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Rokazulu

[Leo Gura]

On 5/29/2022 at 10:08 AM, Matthew85 said:

Since all of the different methods we utilize to have insights and awakenings are being imagined by us to justify a shift in our state, there should be an even more direct route. We should just as easily be able to circumvent or bypass all these steps we create and just experience the shift now. We are already awakened and imagining that we aren't. Have any of you had success in bypassing any chains of causation? If so, how did you achieve it? Was is just a matter of intention, conviction and focus? 

That's like saying that brick walls are imaginary so you should be able to walk through them.

This isn't possible from your current state of consciousness and your human mind is incapable of just changing your state at will. There are deeper layers of consciousness which run you which you have no control over.

You barely have enough self-control to not eat junk food. Yet you expect to have enough self-control to walk through a brick wall? Who are you kidding?

[Oeaohoo]

On 30/05/2022 at 4:00 AM, Rokazulu said:

This is the whole of ancient Zen lineages.

There are those that will say, "You can't skip any steps". Gradual Enlightenment. Yet, others will point to how you could sit on a cushion and meditate for aeons, and receive nothing positive as a result. Sudden Enlightenment. This emphasizes something very important to the subjective condition.

The Satori in Zen, assuming that is what you mean, is not really a sudden awakening. Zen monks prepared for it through often gruelling asceticism, generating a metaphysical state of tension which could then finally explode into transcendence. That was the point of meditating on Koans, for example; to drive the mind into a state of frenzy and force it to recognise its own absurdity. Of course, the awakening itself always happens suddenly because it is an awakening to that which is beyond time. The final accomplishment was therefore often instigated by the Zen master forcing the student into a state of spontaneity by surprising them or taking them (in a final moment of) unaware.

[amanen]

On 30/05/2022 at 6:16 PM, Matthew85 said:

@Rokazulu As my awakenings became deeper, I realized I actually had never done a spiritual practice or taken a psychedelic. These were just things I had imagined to explain or justify experiencing an insight or expanded state of consciousness. If that is the case, then I should be able to circumvent these imagined processes and steps and just experience the state now. 

I've come to the same conclusion.

It has nothing to do with the drug, it has all to do with you.

I have yet to find a more direct mean than psychedelics though, yet I know this should be theoretically possible.

I don't know how to get rid of the required backstory of supposedly taking a drug to increase your consciousness level

[Thought Art]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's like saying that brick walls are imaginary so you should be able to walk through them.

This isn't possible from your current state of consciousness and your human mind is incapable of just changing your state at will. There are deeper layers of consciousness which run you which you have no control over.

You barely have enough self-control to not eat junk food. Yet you expect to have enough self-control to walk through a brick wall? Who are you kidding?

Just seems arbitrary 

very mysterious 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Thought Art

[Rokazulu]

1 hour ago, Oeaohoo said:

The Satori in Zen, assuming that is what you mean, is not really a sudden awakening. Zen monks prepared for it through often gruelling asceticism, generating a metaphysical state of tension which could then finally explode into transcendence. That was the point of meditating on Koans, for example; to drive the mind into a state of frenzy and force it to recognise its own absurdity. Of course, the awakening itself always happens suddenly because it is an awakening to that which is beyond time. The final accomplishment was therefore often instigated by the Zen master forcing the student into a state of spontaneity by surprising them or taking them (in a final moment of) unaware.

Yes, and reading the ancient literature, you see how often they emphasized the "getting it right now" part over the "getting it over time" part.


A monk asked Kõyõ Seijõ,
"Daitsû Chishõ Buddha sat in zazen for ten kalpas* and could not attain Buddhahood.
He did not become a Buddha. How could this be?"

Seijõ said, "Your question is quite self-explanatory."。

The monk asked, "He meditated so long; why could he not attain Buddhahood?"

Seijõ said, "Because he did not become a Buddha."

*a kalpa is 4.32 billion years

Edited June 1, 2022 by Rokazulu

[vladorion]

I think it's obvious that someone who is a part of chains of causation cannot circumvent them.