Why should you take 2 urine tests for heavy metal toxicity?

[Vision]

I've seen Leo, many other people, and health practitioners, recommend that you should take 2 urine tests for heavy metal toxicity. 

One urine test for measuring your heavy metal levels without chelating agents.

And one urine test for measuring your heavy metal levels with chelating agents.

But I don't quite understand why we should take two.

Why not just take one urine test with chelating agents? How would the treatment be different if you took two urine tests? 

[Average Investor]

It gives you an idea of what you are excreting as a baseline versus chelation.

With a urine test, all you are going to see is that you pee out more metals taking a chelation agent. You can speculate on what metals you have more of, but it really is not an indicator of what is stored in your organs. You can mostly just use it to see if it is working or not. That isn't a very good reason to take a larger dose of a chelation off the bat in my opinion. 

[Leo Gura]

You want to be sure the chelation is working. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time and money.

Keep in mind that the food you eat and water you drink is going to have heavy metals in it too, which you're gonna be pissing out. So it's good to get a control for that. Your body may even be naturally chelating some metals.

Proper scientific experiment requires a control.

Having a control creates peace of mind, otherwise you could always be doubting.

[Vision]

On 27/05/2022 at 4:35 AM, Average Investor said:

With a urine test, all you are going to see is that you pee out more metals taking a chelation agent.

@Average Investor Provoked with chelation or unprovoked?

On 27/05/2022 at 4:35 AM, Average Investor said:

but it really is not an indicator of what is stored in your organs. You can mostly just use it to see if it is working or not. That isn't a very good reason to take a larger dose of a chelation off the bat in my opinion.

Why not?

 

[Vision]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You want to be sure the chelation is working. Otherwise you will waste a lot of time and money.

 

@Leo Gura So if the second test (the one where you’re provoking heavy metals with chelation agents) shows more heavy metals in the results compared to unprovoked, then the chelation is working?

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Having a control creates peace of mind, otherwise you could always be doubting.

Doubting what? Doubting whether the chelation is actually working? 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, Vision said:

@Leo Gura So if the second test (the one where you’re provoking heavy metals with chelation agents) shows more heavy metals in the results compared to unprovoked, then the chelation is working?

Obviously.

You can also get a sense of how much its working.

Quote

Doubting what? Doubting whether the chelation is actually working? 

Yes. How do you know it's working?

[Average Investor]

@Vision

To me it would make more sense to take a pee test prior to starting, then as your work yourself up in dose, then test it while on round. If you wanted to know it worked. 

For me I would personally go by if it is working of not. In terms of what gains I am actually getting. I don't have much doubts chelators will remove metals. However, I could see the concern that maybe your body is not able to excrete them, but I have not seen that be the case.

[Maciej Borowka]

22 hours ago, Average Investor said:

@Vision

To me it would make more sense to take a pee test prior to starting, then as your work yourself up in dose, then test it while on round. If you wanted to know it worked.

That will be a waste of money as you will never know how much of those heavy metals are "fresh" from your water and food intake and how many are extracted from your body reserves (old heavy metals) that are usually invisible to tests without chelators.

If you take a urine test before starting and the same day after taking a larger dose of DMSA you can compare what is the difference, if both results are the same... that means all those heavy metals are fresh from food/water and you don't need to chelate at all, as it will be waste of your time and money.

But most probably you will see the result. For me, it was among others - 20x more lead excretion as I was soldering a lot through my life, as solder is 40% lead.

[Average Investor]

11 hours ago, Maciej Borowka said:

That will be a waste of money as you will never know how much of those heavy metals are "fresh" from your water and food intake and how many are extracted from your body reserves (old heavy metals) that are usually invisible to tests without chelators.

If you take a urine test before starting and the same day after taking a larger dose of DMSA you can compare what is the difference, if both results are the same... that means all those heavy metals are fresh from food/water and you don't need to chelate at all, as it will be waste of your time and money.

But most probably you will see the result. For me, it was among others - 20x more lead excretion as I was soldering a lot through my life, as solder is 40% lead.

@Maciej Borowka 

You could do it off round, then start the round with it if you wanted. After you have already worked your way up in terms of dosing. Seems safer to me, then just blasting yourself with a high dose.

I doubt anyone would not have increased levels of any metals excreted by taking a chelator. Especially high doses at that. Doing a test like that is really not an accurate indicator of what is actually stored in your body. There is really no measure to put that data against. You are comparing level on the test to someone who has not taken a chealtor. 

If you want to do it that way fine. To me it just seems like an unesscary risk. 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Average Investor

[sir_kulki]

Hi, I have a question about this initial flood dose of DMSA, before first urine test. If I take flood dose and then just stop and wait for the results, wouldn't this be harmfull? If I understood it right, if I have a lot of heavy metals accumulated and stop taking DMSA after one dose, they can be absorbed elsewhare. Can someone explain how to avoid it?

Thanks

[Average Investor]

6 hours ago, sir_kulki said:

Hi, I have a question about this initial flood dose of DMSA, before first urine test. If I take flood dose and then just stop and wait for the results, wouldn't this be harmfull? If I understood it right, if I have a lot of heavy metals accumulated and stop taking DMSA after one dose, they can be absorbed elsewhare. Can someone explain how to avoid it?

Thanks

In general, I would not personally start with a high does. If I did, then I would finish the round at a lower dose. 

Every time you take a drug like that you are redistributing metals in the body. That is why the protocol takes it on the half life to minimize that. 

You should also read the mercury detoxification manual by Andy before starting anything like this. 

[The0Self]

8 hours ago, sir_kulki said:

Hi, I have a question about this initial flood dose of DMSA, before first urine test. If I take flood dose and then just stop and wait for the results, wouldn't this be harmfull? If I understood it right, if I have a lot of heavy metals accumulated and stop taking DMSA after one dose, they can be absorbed elsewhare. Can someone explain how to avoid it?

Thanks

Yep! This is very important to realize. Every time blood levels fall, it redistributes heavy metals. The only way around this, or at least to mitigate it, is to let blood levels fall less often -- in other words, by doing longer rounds. The break even healing/damage ratio occurs at a round duration of 72 hours. But 1-2 weeks for a round would mean you only let blood levels fall for a few hours out of a whole week or two of chelating. Cutler has talked about that on onibasu, but he also says DMSA rounds should not exceed 2 weeks, though ALA can be taken longer.