The Nature of Desire Contemplation: Was Buddha Wrong?

[Fernanda]

14 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Even if you do awaken, you are so conscious that there are no others who are awake with you. It’s just you.

Exactly. There is equanimity, despite distinctions.

[Razard86]

On 5/25/2022 at 10:39 PM, r0ckyreed said:

I have been contemplating the nature of desire for a couple hours now from scratch and here is what I have come up with so far. I am still refining my ideas.

What is desire?

- Desire is the minds capacity, action, and tendency for wanting some thing.

- This definition is broad to encompass all forms and levels of desire.

- Desire is not as simple as wanting this or that. Desire is the emotional energy that gives birth to all action.

Forms of desire:

1. Improvement

2. Maintain

3. Possess

4. Create

5. Destroy

6. Let go

7. Comfort/security

8. approval/recognition/attention

9. Love

Levels of desire:

1. shallow vs. deep

2. explicit vs. implicit 

3. healthy vs. unhealthy (helpful vs. unhelpful)

4. Conscious vs. unconscious

5. authentic vs. inauthentic (important one here)

6. self vs. other (desire for yourself and for other)

7. Central vs. peripheral desires 

Was Buddha Wrong?

Desire and attachment have overlap but aren’t the same. If you have absolutely no desires, you would be dead. To survive is to desire. Think of every action you take as a desire. You could even think of each cell of your body as having a desire to survive and maintain the systems of your body. Desire is not always conscious.

Desire is the foundation for everything. To even use your energy to sit down and meditate needs desire. Life cannot be lived without some form of desire. There is even a certain desire in detaching from attachments. Why detach at all? 

The key difference between attachment and desire is that not all desire is attachment. Attachment is a shallow form of desire that is clingy and holds onto things, whereas a more broader or healthier desire is about being fluid and flexible in the ability of letting go. 

Liberation from suffering is having the right priorities and healthy desires put in place. Liberation is holistic, which means that all different forms and levels of desires need to be integrated. 

You don’t just have one desire. You have multiple desires that can often be competing with each other. I call these conflicting desires. Contemplate all the conflicting desires you have.

Here are some of mine:

1. Desire to be physically fit vs. desire to eat junk food.

2. Desire to be ambitious/disciplined vs. desire to be lazy/playful

3. Desire for solitude vs. desire to socialize 

4. Desire to be outdoors vs. indoors

5. Desire to detach from media vs. desire to remain attached.

6. Desire to meditate vs. desire to go to bars

We also have a desire-center and desire-periphery. Desire-center is when desire is at the forefront of your attention, which is not always your most healthiest desire. Desire-periphery are all the other desires in the background that can compete with desire-center. Distraction is when inauthentic, shallow, and unimportant desires take up the space in the desire-center.

The highest peace is the highest desire. When Dumbledore and Harry Potter were at the Mirror of Erised (I noticed this is desire backwards :D), Dumbledore says “The happiest man on earth can look into the mirror and see only himself exactly as he is.” The Mirror represents our deepest desire. The happiest person desires nothing but to see reality exactly as it is, to become one and whole with it.

Dumbledore also warns Harry not to “dwell on dreams and forget to live.” Unhealthy desire turns into obsession, which could lead into suffering.

You can even see the importance of desire portrayed in other pop culture films such as Aladdin (Genie lamp), Pirates of Caribbean (Jack’s compass), Bruce Almighty, Bedazzled, and others. 

The key is a lot of people seem to be misguided on what they truly want. You may desire fame or money or drugs or whatever, but is that what you truly desire? Introspection skill is a must here. An important part of the process is sorting out authentic vs inauthentic desires. The inauthentic can lead to a lot of suffering. Whereas, authentic desires can lead us to more freedom.

Desire is not the enemy. Desire is rather the foundation and essence for life itself and living up to your full potential. The highest desire goes full circle into detachment and acceptance. Detachment isn’t a lack of desire, but rather the lack of putting emotional investment and identification in things/events.

What do you all think? Was the Buddha wrong about desire being the cause of suffering? Let me know!

 

You are very intelligent and very deep. Very profound post here.....I am getting really impressed with the level of content Forum Users such as yourself have been posting. You have a teacher within you that is screaming to be released. Very very well done post. I shall be contemplating on the nature of the questions and concepts brought forth here. WELL DONE!!

[gettoefl]

an insight i happened on today is the following:

mind is always in one of 3 states - crave, cling, oppose

crave (desire) seeks to improve the what is

cling seeks to prolong the what is

oppose seeks to stop the what is

notice this

can mind accept the what is? what would that look like?

hint: no-mind

[r0ckyreed]

5 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You are very intelligent and very deep. Very profound post here.....I am getting really impressed with the level of content Forum Users such as yourself have been posting. You have a teacher within you that is screaming to be released. Very very well done post. I shall be contemplating on the nature of the questions and concepts brought forth here. WELL DONE!!

Thanks mate. Glad I got you thinking.  ❤️? 
 

 

2 hours ago, gettoefl said:

can mind accept the what is? what would that look like?

hint: no-mind

Good question. I would suggest that true acceptance also includes acceptance of thoughts. Thinking is a natural part of mind. Deep acceptance may lead to deep silence, but that is because thinking is also accepted for what it is as well. 

I believe thinking is a good thing, but thinking is often demonized just like desire in part because the negative aspects are generalized.

I find quietude in my mind when I am able to accept my thoughts for what they are. My struggle is that I can’t maintain no-mind for very long because that is when I get really creative thoughts and insights. That is just my experience at least.

Edited May 28, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[Breakingthewall]

buddha was right. The root of suffering is desire. without desire there is no life. life is suffering, each breath is a struggle not to stop breathing, which will happen at the end. individual existence is desire to be separate. Without it, you will melt into the whole. Buddha thought that the goal is to merge, to reach nirvana, to stop being an individual. That is why he advocated the end of desire, the cause of suffering, that is, the cause of individual existence. 

Another question could be ir there is any problem with suffering 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

buddha was right. The root of suffering is desire. without desire there is no life. life is suffering, each breath is a struggle not to stop breathing, which will happen at the end. individual existence is desire to be separate. Without it, you will melt into the whole. Buddha thought that the goal is to merge, to reach nirvana, to stop being an individual. That is why he advocated the end of desire, the cause of suffering, that is, the cause of individual existence. 

Another question could be ir there is any problem with suffering 

I appreciate your perspective. I would say Buddha was partly right. Suffering is a natural part of life. I see life more like an adventure than as a torture chamber like Buddha may have seen it. Life as an adventure implies challenge and delight. 

Desire gives us something to look forward towards and helps us be able to bear our suffering. Desire and meaning I think are connected. But there are desires that can lead us away from our true desire. Viktor Frankl’s book is good for illustrating importance of desire, meaning, and perception.

To me, it isn’t all desire that causes suffering, but rather our perception and frame of mind when things don’t go our way. Things not going our way is inevitable, but suffering can be optional for how we process experience. Suffering to me is dissatisfaction and lack of desire like apathy. It is vital to me to live a passionate life. When I am full of passion, I am most at peace in my experience.

I think it all comes down to the quality of our desires. Attachment and craving could be seen as low level desires. Whereas passion and meaning can be high quality desires - the difference between hedonism and eudaimonia.

For your last question, your mind creates wrong and imperfection out of perfection which is a reason for suffering. A suffering mind creates problems, apathy, etc., and a peaceful mind creates solutions, meaning, and passion/desire. 

There is nothing wrong with suffering. If there is, then that is the suffering!  

What do you think?

Edited May 29, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[gettoefl]

11 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Thanks mate. Glad I got you thinking.  ❤️? 
 

 

Good question. I would suggest that true acceptance also includes acceptance of thoughts. Thinking is a natural part of mind. Deep acceptance may lead to deep silence, but that is because thinking is also accepted for what it is as well. 

I believe thinking is a good thing, but thinking is often demonized just like desire in part because the negative aspects are generalized.

I find quietude in my mind when I am able to accept my thoughts for what they are. My struggle is that I can’t maintain no-mind for very long because that is when I get really creative thoughts and insights. That is just my experience at least.

thinking is not bad and thinking is not good, thinking will come thinking will go, it is nothing to do with me, i haven't control over thinking in any given moment, it is random and arbitrary and mystifying

i do not demonize thinking, what i say is the thinking is believed to be who i am, it is controlling me, it is a program that is running things on my behalf

if i see thinking doing this to me, i create distance and am aware that i am not the thinking, the only choice is to be aware of this or not to be aware of this

when i stay in awareness, i become the watcher of thinking and i see deeply how the process works, it is just a conditioning program to have me strive for the best life irrespective of who in what stands in the way

awareness sees all this and starts to unravel this program and make me the master of my own destiny

it is only by looking at thinking that i become truly capable to engage in thinking, no mind isn't no thinking, it is the ability to use the thinking capacity and not have it use me

awareness is the only freedom one has, it is a superpower and curative of all life's ills, spirituality at root is the development of this power

[axiom]

Quote

I think it all comes down to the quality of our desires.

This involves ego and bias. That which is found by seeking in the world is always finite, so always leaves room for wanting. Desire may be the cause of seeking, but it is also the result of seeking. Completeness can only be achieved through desirelessness.

Edited May 29, 2022 by axiom

[r0ckyreed]

3 hours ago, gettoefl said:

no mind isn't no thinking, it is the ability to use the thinking capacity and not have it use me

awareness is the only freedom one has, it is a superpower and curative of all life's ills, spirituality at root is the development of this power

Awesome! I like that.

3 hours ago, axiom said:

This involves ego and bias.

Most definitely. My claim is that as long as you are surviving, you cannot fully escape bias and ego. Ego and bias are essential to survival and what makes “you” unique.

3 hours ago, axiom said:

Completeness can only be achieved through desirelessness.

Maybe I am not understanding what desirelessness is. I guess I am associating desirelessness with apathy and depression. Whereas desire I associate with passion and excitement in striving towards goals. Happiness to me is finding content, gratitude, and satisfaction with the present moment as it is. A higher form of happiness could be also filled with the energy of passion and excitement towards the present moment.

How do you attain desirelessness without desiring for it? 

Maybe desirelessness is more like acceptance rather than a lack of desire?

[axiom]

Just now, r0ckyreed said:

As long as you are surviving, you cannot fully escape bias and ego. Ego and bias are essential to survival and what makes “you” unique.

Maybe I am not understanding what desirelessness is. I guess I am associating desirelessness with apathy and depression. Whereas desire I associate with passion and excitement in striving towards goals. Happiness to me is finding content, gratitude, and satisfaction with the present moment as it is. A higher form of happiness could be also filled with the energy of passion and excitement towards the present moment.

How do you attain desirelessness without desiring for it? 

Maybe desirelessness is more like acceptance rather than a lack of desire?

The body needs desire to survive, but you are not the body.

All of the things you've ever desired from the world were part of an effort to seek love and completeness, but they are mere shadows compared to what is truly real, and truly yours already.

Desirelessness is not something to attain. It is what already is. Acceptance beyond acceptance, love beyond love.

[r0ckyreed]

I am currently reading How To Think Like Sherlock Holmes by Maria Konnikova. One thing that has stood out to me so far is her section on The Two M’s: Mindfulness and Motivation. She states that research supports that motivated students outperform. Motivation was found to generalize to academic performance, fewer criminal convictions, better employment outcomes, and an overall life satisfaction. 

The concept of “rage to master” coined by Ellen Winner describes the internal/intrinsic motivation and desire to master a specific domain. People with a rage to master, which is a desire for mastery were found to be more successful than controls. In general, people who are motivated most outperform. 

Motivation and desire are linked. Desire is linked to growth and success. If you don’t desire growth, how can you grow? Suffering to me is the lack of desire, lack of motivation. 

Can acceptance and motivation/desire be compatible with each other?? 

Desire to me is like water for a flower. The flower needs water to live and grow, but it needs a certain quality and amount of water for the balance of its life and growth.

Balance is health. Either extreme of water/desire can be unhealthy. It’s like the Buddha said with The Middle Way, neither self-indulgence nor self-denial.

Edited May 29, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[axiom]

@r0ckyreed

Yes, within the game, motivation and desire and "success" all appear to be interrelated in some sense. You can become extremely proficient at the game. But it's just a game, and the purpose of the game is to feed you dopamine just frequently enough to keep you hypnotised into believing you are the game character, and to keep you playing.

Quote

If you don’t desire growth, how can you grow? 

You don't need to grow. You are already perfect. You can't grow anyway except within the game.

I am talking about transcending the game. Moving the locus of attention from the character to the player. 

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by axiom

[Razard86]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:57 AM, r0ckyreed said:

I would say that more specifically ignorance or selfishness is at the root of suffering. People can be misguided and ignorant about what they really want. And they can spend years climbing the wrong mountain. Not all roads lead to nirvana. Some roads lead to peaks and some to valleys.

I think it is about raising consciousness to love and see the magic in reality and to not be attached to outcome but engaged in the moment. But to raise consciousness has to start with a desire and takes discipline. Without desire, where can we go?

Do we really want to escape suffering and life, or do we want to learn how to love and embrace it such that it no longer has same affect?

This goes to my next questions: Can you truly be free from desire and still live? Can you really surrender what you truly desire? What does it even mean to surrender your life and transcend survival? Can you really transcend survival? What would that look like?  

Would you truly want to only experience one emotion of happiness and peace or be able to experience the full range of emotions more consciously? This reminds of The Dark Knight Rises. Batman says he doesn’t fear death which is why he failed at climbing his way to freedom. He was then advised to invite fear back into his life and use it to give him the strength to make the climb.

For the longest time, I thought that I wanted to become fearless and only experience peace/happiness like a Jedi detaching from all negative emotions, but I realized that I would rather have courage to experience the range of emotion more consciously. Courage isn’t the absence of emotion, but it is rather the embracement of emotion to take action.

What do you think? Thanks!

 

 

1. Batman is a fictional character and a highly unrealistic one. I would say the only way for Batman to not fear death, is for him to be okay with the death of others. So no Batman does fear death, just not his own. His greatest fear is the death of others. So he is full of plenty of fear. In fact Batman's whole vengeance theme is his attempt to prevent others from experiencing the same pain he felt when he lost his parents. So he is completely motivated by fear.

Exactly I came to the same conclusion but through a different route. I questioned why negative emotions exist, and then Leo said in one of his videos that "pain" makes the dream real. The only reason our life has meaning is because of pain. If we never experienced any negative emotions...there wouldn't be any point to life. You see pain is an obstacle, its a barrier. All growth is associated with negative emotions. We have to deal with wrestling with the unknown, and giving up control. When your true nature is an everlasting all-powerful being, how could you enjoy life unless you gave all that up? By limiting yourself, feeling powerless and helpless, you can grow, develop, overcome, and find meaning. 

If everything was painless, and always blissful....you would grow bored and wake up because there is absolutely nothing to do or accomplish. The reason waking up is so hard to do...is because there is so much pain. We are VERY attached to our pain, we love it dearly. Without it....life wouldn't feel real.

 

[Breakingthewall]

19 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Life as an adventure implies challenge and delight. 

Exactly. It seems that buddha's goal is the end of suffering, and with it, the end of the wheel of reincarnations. this implies that reincarnation is something negative, that is, that life is something negative, that it would be desirable to avoid. the buddha's goal is total ego death. Well, after living like a prince, like a seeker and like a lover. not a bad plan at the end.

individual existence is suffering. being a proton implies resistance to stop being a proton. but as you say, we can say that this is a positive suffering. accepted suffering, with a goal: to be. And there is a suffering that seems more negative, the frustration, the cowardice, being trapped. the suffering from which existence cannot escape. I would say, more than seeking the end of suffering, seek to accept suffering, and even seek it, since it is a source of life

 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[WelcometoReality]

On 2022-05-26 at 7:17 PM, r0ckyreed said:

I think I got it now. Happiness is being satisfied of the present moment and suffering is being dissatisfied with the present moment,

That's it. ?

On 2022-05-26 at 7:17 PM, r0ckyreed said:

To me, satisfaction is the acceptance of reality as it is. In the state of satisfaction, our desires are more focused on the here and now.

Have you ever been in a flow state where things are effortlessly happening, is there any desire then?

Also, have you ever burned yourself on a stove and was there a desire to remove your hand or did it happen automatically?

I'd say that if life was a constant flow there wouldn't be any desire or i. Just life effortlessly unfolding.

[r0ckyreed]

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Have you ever been in a flow state where things are effortlessly happening, is there any desire then?

The way I use desire is a broad idea that encompasses the energy to do something. I feel like the Buddha used desire to mean wanting something that you don’t have now. But that to me is a limiting view of desire because not all desire is focused on what you don’t have already. We often forget about the desires to maintain and create/destroy. Can you really create without some form, conscious or unconscious form of desire?

Desire to me is the energy, motivation, and will to do something. In the flow state, I am flowing am often flowing towards something as opposed to grinding against something.

For instance, I can work out and flow with that and I can do schoolwork and flow with that. When I flow with something, I do not desire anything beyond what I am doing. But that to me doesn’t mean desire is not present. To exercise and to do schoolwork, to exert any energy what so ever to me comes down to a certain level and quality of desire. Why choose exercise over TV? We make choices all the time and it is motivated by a certain desire in that moment I think.

I think I am in the flow state most often when I am following my desires fully. If you are doing what you don’t really want to do, it can be hard to go in flow with that. But what helps me get into flow is following my passion/desire at any given moment.

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Also, have you ever burned yourself on a stove and was there a desire to remove your hand or did it happen automatically?

Yeah. Reflexes are very interesting. I think that desire is such a deep topic, much deeper than we would normally think. I think our body and all of our cells have desires in a way. For instance, you may desire to stop drugs, but your body could still be desiring them. White blood cells also go after germs to  preserve immune system. 

But you bring a good point on whether it is just an automatic process or a will/desire. The issue is where do we draw the line between reflex and desire, or are they one? Without the homeostasis that is happening at a bodily level, then we could not desire and live I guess you could say.

We naturally have an inclination to pursue pleasure and avoid pain. The stove situation could be a form of unconscious desire. It is not you consciously will to pull your hand away, it is just that the body itself has an inclination and will to survive. 

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I'd say that if life was a constant flow there wouldn't be any desire or i. Just life effortlessly unfolding.

I think the energy of the current/flow is the energy of desire. Desire not in the sense of wanting something that you don’t have, but desire in the sense of energy, motivation, and ambition. Desire and satisfaction can be compatible with each other. When they aren’t working together, suffering arises.

What I am saying is that even to act, to move your body, to move into comfort/discomfort, refraining from impulses, discipline, and even to breathe has its roots in desire. 

There is a difference to what you may desire and what your body may desire. I call these conflicting desires. You might consciously desire not to close your eyes when an object is close like my finger, but another part of your mind unconsciously desires to close your eyes because a part of your mind doesn’t trust fully. It doesn’t matter if you try to convince your mind that nothing will harm the eye, your eye will close when my finger comes close. At least until you begin doing classical/operant conditioning.

This is where I disagree with Peter Ralston and Buddha. Not all desire is about the future. This can be the difference between desiring to get an A and a desire to learn for its own sake. Or the desire to beat your own time at running vs. the desire just to go for a run, be present, and have fun. I think both of these cases are forms of desire at the root.

What do you think? 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

The way I use desire is a broad idea that encompasses the energy to do something. I feel like the Buddha used desire to mean wanting something that you don’t have now. But that to me is a limiting view of desire because not all desire is focused on what you don’t have already. We often forget about the desires to maintain and create/destroy. Can you really create without some form, conscious or unconscious form of desire?

Yeah, Your definition of desire is not the way buddha defined it and therefore we can only compare the definitions. If you define it as the energy to do something then no, you cant create if you don't have desire.

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

Desire to me is the energy, motivation, and will to do something. In the flow state, I am flowing am often flowing towards something as opposed to grinding against something.

For instance, I can work out and flow with that and I can do schoolwork and flow with that. When I flow with something, I do not desire anything beyond what I am doing. But that to me doesn’t mean desire is not present. To exercise and to do schoolwork, to exert any energy what so ever to me comes down to a certain level and quality of desire. Why choose exercise over TV? We make choices all the time and it is motivated by a certain desire in that moment I think.

I think I am in the flow state most often when I am following my desires fully. If you are doing what you don’t really want to do, it can be hard to go in flow with that. But what helps me get into flow is following my passion/desire at any given moment.

Yeah, you put it really well. You're not grinding against but towards. Perhaps we could call that a "higher" level of desire where you flow with the current rather than swimming against it. Not as exhausting I'd say.

What I think is the most interesting with flow states are when we are so deep into it that there isn't a willful act to do anything rather things are happening effortlessly. No i is present but the body does what it does, creates, and when the flow state ends the i wakes up again almost as if it went to sleep. 

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

Yeah. Reflexes are very interesting. I think that desire is such a deep topic, much deeper than we would normally think. I think our body and all of our cells have desires in a way. For instance, you may desire to stop drugs, but your body could still be desiring them. White blood cells also go after germs to  preserve immune system. 

But you bring a good point on whether it is just an automatic process or a will/desire. The issue is where do we draw the line between reflex and desire, or are they one? Without the homeostasis that is happening at a bodily level, then we could not desire and live I guess you could say.

We naturally have an inclination to pursue pleasure and avoid pain. The stove situation could be a form of unconscious desire. It is not you consciously will to pull your hand away, it is just that the body itself has an inclination and will to survive. 

A deep topic indeed. ? It's quite interesting to observe the bodys ability to do without any conscious will. The problem that can occur is that either it's never recognized to be happening without effort because there is no i present or once it's recognized we want to involve in the process. ?

 

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

I think the energy of the current/flow is the energy of desire. Desire not in the sense of wanting something that you don’t have, but desire in the sense of energy, motivation, and ambition. Desire and satisfaction can be compatible with each other. When they aren’t working together, suffering arises.

What I am saying is that even to act, to move your body, to move into comfort/discomfort, refraining from impulses, discipline, and even to breathe has its roots in desire. 

There is a difference to what you may desire and what your body may desire. I call these conflicting desires. You might consciously desire not to close your eyes when an object is close like my finger, but another part of your mind unconsciously desires to close your eyes because a part of your mind doesn’t trust fully. It doesn’t matter if you try to convince your mind that nothing will harm the eye, your eye will close when my finger comes close. At least until you begin doing classical/operant conditioning.

This is where I disagree with Peter Ralston and Buddha. Not all desire is about the future. This can be the difference between desiring to get an A and a desire to learn for its own sake. Or the desire to beat your own time at running vs. the desire just to go for a run, be present, and have fun. I think both of these cases are forms of desire at the root.

What do you think? 

I think what you say makes sense. Can't see any conflicting ideas. I like what you said about conflicting desires. Inner conflict will definitely cause suffering.

I think Buddha has a point in what he says but his definition of desire is more specific. Meaning a lack in the present and moving towards a future goal. And with that definition I would agree that it's good to see through the illusion of desire. Happiness is right here and now.

[VeganAwake]

Desires can seem to arise, there just not arising for a someone!

The desirer isn't really there!

That recognition can kind of take the wind out of the sail for certain desires.

❤ 

 

[r0ckyreed]

Desire is the essence of the Rocky Balboa lifestyle. Rocky Balboa isn’t just a movie, it is a way of life.

Desire + discipline = ambition

ambition + time = success/growth  

[Consilience]

On 5/26/2022 at 1:17 PM, r0ckyreed said:

The Buddha wasn’t arguing against all desire but of a specific unhealthy kind that leads to attachment which leads to suffering??

This is spot on. You need a deep desire to actually awaken. But in the end, even that desire is extinguished. It could be seen as contradictory, but it’s actually not.