Is enlightenment achievable?

[Thanks]

Please read carefully,

Lately, I have been reflecting upon the non-achievable nature of awakening. I have this intuition that to wake up is not conditioned by any action of the body-mind ego machinery. Enlightenment cannot be caused, rather it is always already the case. As you can imagine, I am struggling to digest this. Nothing can cause enlightenment because it is that which is always the case. Always waiting for that moment, that peak but I really feel there is nothing that can be done about it. I just assume that there could be non-enligthenment and then wake up to the truth, but how is that possible.

To go beyond ego assumes there is ego. To go beyond I assumes there is an I. To go beyond being assumes there is being. To attain GOD-realization assumes that there can be something other than God. That there could possibly be something which is not God. That which we all search is prior to the body phenomena, it should not be created or destroyable, therefore uncaused or non-conditioned and imposible to realise or get it. That which does not depend on any condition to be. It is stupid to say that realization is something that would change somehow anything, rather seems that reality which is always the case and existance itself is the truth.

Having said this, there is still the experience of separation and identification with body-mind and egoic agenda. There is no experience of oneness, neither God-conciousness-love.

My question is: How can I handle this situation? Where the ilusion is realized as never existent but paradoxically it is still going on. I feel like surrender and breathing. It also feels like I could be deceiving myself and that I would lose all the progress done and that I should keep doing all this action and non-action to wake up. It's just that all this seeking has been seen as futile. As Sri Anandamayi Ma says, it is only God who plays as the seeker and the savior. I really feel that all this seeking won't get me to wake up, but also I don't know if not seeking will wake me up. However it feels the next natural step. I want advice from people who have been here and can guide me. Thank you very much

[Breakingthewall]

I think that permanent enlightenment is possible, and that it must be achieved, but i don't know how. The thing is that "achieves" implies the opposite to enlightenment. it's not about getting anywhere, as you said, it's already the case, but there are very serious barriers that prevent you from seeing it, that keep you mired in the shadows. this barrier is solid since it is you. if there is you there is no enlightenment, simple. if you want enlightenment you have to cancel the you, but the fact of "wanting enlightenment" is the you in all its power. It is a very delicate, subtle matter. Really I don't know the way, but seems that little by little the self recognize his unreality, his futility . you can wake up completely with psychedelics, which erase the self for a while, but living without a self, transparent, empty...it's extremely unusual imo.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

maybe my definition of meditation may help

i sit on the mat with my timer

existence meanwhile does whatever it wants, whatever it needs, it chips away it chirps it chisels

i have no clue what happens, i have no technique no plan no expectation

i stop the timer when it beeps

[Gesundheit2]

24 minutes ago, Thanks said:

Always waiting for that moment

You are speaking the truth, but looking elsewhere. The truth is this statement that you wrote, as long as it describes you.

24 minutes ago, Thanks said:

My question is: How can I handle this situation?

Make some tea and drink it.

[Leo Gura]

Take some 5-MeO-DMT and you will create awakening within a few minutes.

It's very achievable.

Don't over-mystify this thing. There is a science to it. Those who don't know the science will try to tell you it's impossible.

[electroBeam]

17 hours ago, Thanks said:

Please read carefully,

Lately, I have been reflecting upon the non-achievable nature of awakening. I have this intuition that to wake up is not conditioned by any action of the body-mind ego machinery. Enlightenment cannot be caused, rather it is always already the case. As you can imagine, I am struggling to digest this. Nothing can cause enlightenment because it is that which is always the case. Always waiting for that moment, that peak but I really feel there is nothing that can be done about it. I just assume that there could be non-enligthenment and then wake up to the truth, but how is that possible.

To go beyond ego assumes there is ego. To go beyond I assumes there is an I. To go beyond being assumes there is being. To attain GOD-realization assumes that there can be something other than God. That there could possibly be something which is not God. That which we all search is prior to the body phenomena, it should not be created or destroyable, therefore uncaused or non-conditioned and imposible to realise or get it. That which does not depend on any condition to be. It is stupid to say that realization is something that would change somehow anything, rather seems that reality which is always the case and existance itself is the truth.

Having said this, there is still the experience of separation and identification with body-mind and egoic agenda. There is no experience of oneness, neither God-conciousness-love.

My question is: How can I handle this situation? Where the ilusion is realized as never existent but paradoxically it is still going on. I feel like surrender and breathing. It also feels like I could be deceiving myself and that I would lose all the progress done and that I should keep doing all this action and non-action to wake up. It's just that all this seeking has been seen as futile. As Sri Anandamayi Ma says, it is only God who plays as the seeker and the savior. I really feel that all this seeking won't get me to wake up, but also I don't know if not seeking will wake me up. However it feels the next natural step. I want advice from people who have been here and can guide me. Thank you very much

I know awakening will happen to you, because you're worried you wont achieve it.

But you're also very afraid of it, and you don't want it to happen at a certain level.

Its going to take you time to fully muster up the courage to awaken, 1-3 or so more years.

But if you get to a point where all of these thought stories are starting to really hurt, you know you need to get real and up the pace and push through all that fear. 

In the mean time, it doesn't hurt to enjoy your life... these theories about enlightenment aren't helping in any way, you'll look back and go "oh man, I really thought they were helpful, guess they added nothing to my journey"

[Gesundheit2]

@Leo Gura If what you're saying is true and your method is scientific, then how is it possible that Martin Ball, Adeptus, some forum members who did 5-MeO, and many others disagree with you?

I'm asking seriously. If you claim science, then you should be responsible for it and face the criticism head on instead of just silencing, ridiculing, and threatening to ban. No one is against what you're saying if you can provide empirical evidence, at least I'm not. I'm not trying to pick holes in what you're saying. But there seems to be many obvious holes that are hard to ignore, especially for someone who cares about science and the truth and therefore feels the need to speak up, like myself.

Science is about objective truth, which is made through collaboration, massive data, and consensus, not just anecdotal reports, regardless of how truthful these individual reports might be. If you claim science, then make your claim and let others criticize it and scrutinize it to death. And then we'll know what works and what doesn't. That's how science is done. In this case, 5-MeO users (psychedelic in general) give different reports and accounts of their experiences. So there's obviously no consensus, and therefore no objective truth, only one's personal subjective and anecdotal truth, which I'm not against by any means.

Science is challenging, that's how it's supposed to be. But you seem to not want to face any challenges in this particular case, at least so far. Anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and not awake and had not gone deep enough. That's the general theme of your responses from my pov. Can you see that what I'm saying has at least a little bit of truth to it?

Edited May 24, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

If what you're saying is true and your method is scientific, then how is it possible that Martin Ball, Adeptus, some forum members who did 5-MeO, and many others disagree with you?

The chemical alone is not enough if you are not willing to fully deconstruct your mind.

The chemical is just a lubricant for your mind.

[UnbornTao]

You seem to hold direct consciousness as impossible, as most of society.

Many seemingly sincere people, both contemporary and ancient, have said that enlightenment is possible. What would be all the fuss about, then?

You are you, consciousness of this is what's needed. Intellect, second-guessing and looking for validation isn't helpful.

Think of it as seeing your nose. Your mind ignores it but it is there. 

In short, it is possible for everyone. Start by simply considering the possibility. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by UnbornTao

[SeaMonster]

19 hours ago, Thanks said:

How can I handle this situation?

Merely notice what you're "clinging" to.  There's a repetitive thought, focusing on a point, calling it "I." 

But it's just a thought, a belief. Become aware of what you're doing. Become aware of your conception of "I."

[SeaMonster]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

If what you're saying is true and your method is scientific, then how is it possible that Martin Ball, Adeptus, some forum members who did 5-MeO, and many others disagree with you?

But it's not even about empirical evidence yet -- it's about defining our terms.  I don't think Leo uses the term "awakening" to mean the same thing as any other spiritual teacher I have ever read.  This could mean that Leo has made up his own definition of "awakening" and hence he is not "wrong" within the context of his definition, he's just "wrong" with regard to objective reality (i.e. how all other spiritual teachers define "awakening.")

Awakening is a permanent shift in awareness, it is not an intellectual insight per se.  The only answer that one has to give is, what is my experience of "I" right now, if any? One doesn't need a philosophical lecture, just a simple answer.  How am I experiencing "I"?  Can Leo give a clear, unambiguous answer to that question so that his level of consciousness may be gauged or is he going to continue to insist that his definition is paramount, unique and unquestionable?

[AdeptusPsychonautica]

@Gesundheit2  Just take is as a given that @Leo Gura is deeply confused at the difference between "science" and "his personal subjective experience" and then you will probably realize its not worth asking him this kind of question.

And of course when he talks about "lubricating the brain" and "radical open mindedness" just substitute in "believe exactly what I believe, for no particularly good reason". 

Simples! ?

[Gesundheit2]

@AdeptusPsychonautica Actually I think his response here is fairly reasonable and worth more consideration.

[WelcometoReality]

19 hours ago, Thanks said:

Lately, I have been reflecting upon the non-achievable nature of awakening. I have this intuition that to wake up is not conditioned by any action of the body-mind ego machinery. Enlightenment cannot be caused, rather it is always already the case. As you can imagine, I am struggling to digest this. Nothing can cause enlightenment because it is that which is always the case. Always waiting for that moment, that peak but I really feel there is nothing that can be done about it. I just assume that there could be non-enligthenment and then wake up to the truth, but how is that possible.

Of course, now is all there is and enlightenment is waking up to that. You realize how ridiculous it was to believe that there was a future and past that was real.

Waiting for what to happen? That is anticipation for some future event. If you do that you'll wait for a life time.

20 hours ago, Thanks said:

To go beyond ego assumes there is ego. To go beyond I assumes there is an I. To go beyond being assumes there is being. To attain GOD-realization assumes that there can be something other than God. That there could possibly be something which is not God. That which we all search is prior to the body phenomena, it should not be created or destroyable, therefore uncaused or non-conditioned and imposible to realise or get it. That which does not depend on any condition to be. It is stupid to say that realization is something that would change somehow anything, rather seems that reality which is always the case and existance itself is the truth.

Having said this, there is still the experience of separation and identification with body-mind and egoic agenda. There is no experience of oneness, neither God-conciousness-love

So start seeing through the illusion that you are describing moment by moment.

20 hours ago, Thanks said:

Having said this, there is still the experience of separation and identification with body-mind and egoic agenda. There is no experience of oneness, neither God-conciousness-love.

Because it hasn't been realized yet.

20 hours ago, Thanks said:

My question is: How can I handle this situation? Where the ilusion is realized as never existent but paradoxically it is still going on. I feel like surrender and breathing. It also feels like I could be deceiving myself and that I would lose all the progress done and that I should keep doing all this action and non-action to wake up. It's just that all this seeking has been seen as futile. As Sri Anandamayi Ma says, it is only God who plays as the seeker and the savior. I really feel that all this seeking won't get me to wake up, but also I don't know if not seeking will wake me up. However it feels the next natural step. I want advice from people who have been here and can guide me. Thank you very much

You are already that which you'll seek. Just sink deeper into that which you truly are.

[AdeptusPsychonautica]

@Gesundheit2 If you find value in Leo's response then more power to you, but the fact remains it isn't science by any definition, and when Leo invokes "science" as he often does, then it is often an incorrect application of that word and what it represents.

This would suggest that he either is simply confused as to what science is, or that he is deliberately invoking it in a deceitful way in order to add weight to a point he is trying to make. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

[Breakingthewall]

@AdeptusPsychonauticai  guess he mean that the chemistry of the brain is constructed in such a way as to provide great solidity to the structure of the ego, to guarantee the survival of the individual and the group, and that the psychedelic alters that chemistry in a certain way. temporary, dissolving the ego barriers that give consistency to subjective reality, thus allowing a total opening of the mind and enlightenment happening. This has a scientific explanation since there are substances that stop the activity of the frontal lobe, which is where the structure of the separate self is created...at least it's that i think it happens . The thing here is to define enlightenment. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[SeaMonster]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

i  guess he mean that the chemistry of the brain is constructed in such a way as to provide great solidity to the structure of the ego, to guarantee the survival of the individual and the group, and that the psychedelic alters that chemistry in a certain way. temporary, dissolving the ego barriers that give consistency to subjective reality, thus allowing a total opening of the mind and enlightenment happening. This has a scientific explanation since there are substances that stop the activity of the frontal lobe, which is where the structure of the separate self is created...at least it's that i think it happens . The thing here is to define enlightenment. 

Keyword in bold.

There isn't a single spiritual teacher out there who thinks that an "awakening" as defined by him/her is "temporary."

That's an experience of some type not an awakening.  

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The chemical alone is not enough if you are not willing to fully deconstruct your mind.

The chemical is just a lubricant for your mind.

You don't have to deconstruct your whole mind you just have to be curious and open minded.  Enlightenment will shatter any construction you had anyway.   

[SeaMonster]

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

You don't have to deconstruct your whole mind you just can't be locked into anything and most people are.  Enlightenment will shatter any construction you had anyway.   

What does "deconstruct your mind" even mean? The most charitable interpretation matching reality is something like the self-inquiry technique.  

If that's so, why would you need a particular psychedelic in the first place?

Quote

 

Self-enquiry, also spelled self-inquiry (Sanskrit vichara, also called jnana-vichara[1] or ātma-vichār), is the constant attention to the inner awareness of "I" or "I am" recommended by Ramana Maharshi as the most efficient and direct way of discovering the unreality of the "I"-thought.

Ramana Mahirishi taught that the "I"-thought will disappear and only "I-I"[web 1] or self-awareness remains. This results in an "effortless awareness of being",[2] and by staying with it[3] this "I-I" gradually destroys the vasanas "which cause the 'I'-thought to rise,"[2] and finally the 'I'-thought never rises again, which is Self-realization or liberation.[2]

 

From Wiki.

Edited May 24, 2022 by SeaMonster

[Fernanda]

2 hours ago, AdeptusPsychonautica said:

If you find value in Leo's response then more power to you, but the fact remains it isn't science by any definition, and when Leo invokes "science" as he often does, then it is often an incorrect application of that word and what it represents.

Is awakening/enlightenment a science by any definition? Can science lead to truth?