Absolutely damning front-page article about Pickup

[Vrubel]

This is a front-page article in one of Israel's leading news platform:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/culture/article-707136

They seem to have mixed up Incel culture with pick up, and equivalate approaching with harassment. Pickup is here really painted as some degenerate loser cultlike activity. 

Of course, there are toxic and immature elements within the community. But from my experience, most of my pickup mates have decent attitudes towards women. Of course, there is the occasional "guy (shit) talk" amongst ourselves where we basically judge girls and act all macho but that's like every guy (and girls have their own version of that.)  

Not gonna lie, feel kinda saddened by this article because it will lead to more societal demonization. I myself already struggle mentally with the "societal unacceptability" of pick up, and this is not helping.

@Leo Gura) Do you think this article makes fair points or is it a total misunderstanding of the phenomenon?

Edited May 21, 2022 by Vrubel

[puporing]

I think pick-up is best used to develop skills around attraction, same could be said for women I do think there are skills/awareness involved in developing attraction on both sides. There are more conscious ways of doing short-term dating and there are less loving/conscious ways of doing it, and it's a pretty wide spectrum. 

There's a very clear difference between someone who learns pick-up skills because they like to be with women/develop intimacy with women vs. someone who's looking for a quick fix/ego-boost without really wanting to know the other person or really see them even as a person. There's no joy to be around someone who clearly both dislikes women and wants/expects sex from them at the same time. It's something I can easily pick up these days and have no interest in being around. 

The best situation is rare where you find your "soulmate"(s), and I think pick-up/short-term dating is more to fill the gaps when you don't have that in your life yet.

[Vrubel]

@puporing Well spoken

 

[something_else]

Pickup is only bad if you lack basic social skills, or you’re a dickhead who wants to use and manipulate women 

Those tend to be the bad ones who make the news hence the bad reputation

Just view it as improving your social skills, making friends, partying etc. if you’re worried about the negative reputation

Edited May 22, 2022 by something_else

[Raze]

A lot of the media is controlled by feminists who view pick up as evil and regularly engage in media campaigns to try and stop them. They want to make approaching women at all considered harassment. Ironically this just makes pick up artists stronger and more toxic as they retreat to darker more underground corners of the internet and have less competition.

[something_else]

Just now, Raze said:

A lot of the media is controlled by feminists who view pick up as evil and regularly engage in media campaigns to try and stop them. They want to make approaching women at all considered harassment.

This is 100% an over-dramatisation, and deep down you know it

[Leo Gura]

The article is correct that pickup culture is sexist, toxic, manipulative, and fundamentally dysfunctional. Incel culture is even worse.

I have always said that.

Nevertheless, go out and talk to girls. What most guys do in a toxic way you can do in a healthier way. You don't have to buy into pickup culture. Just learn to socialize with girls.

[Raze]

6 hours ago, something_else said:

This is 100% an over-dramatisation, and deep down you know it

Yet I’ve seen plenty of evidence of it 

[something_else]

32 minutes ago, Raze said:

Yet I’ve seen plenty of evidence of it 

Like?

I don’t doubt there are some super extreme misandrists out there, but the idea that there are feminists who want to make it harassment every time a man talks to a new woman is absurd

[Raze]

3 hours ago, something_else said:

Like?

I don’t doubt there are some super extreme misandrists out there, but the idea that there are feminists who want to make it harassment every time a man talks to a new woman is absurd

I didn’t say just a man talking to a woman, I said a man approaching a woman, as in trying to pick her up. Their activism got the pick up artist simulator removed from PlayStation because they considered it supporting harassment. The old simple pickup channel was also regularly accused of promoting street harassment simply for promoting men approaching women. 

[puporing]

@Raze @something_else The problem with talking about any issue by only looking at/picking apart "extremists" and the most unreasonable, un-nuanced, and biased "activists" is that it derails the whole discussion as if there is nothing worth examining, reflecting on, or discussing, and also often this gets extended to a whole entire group of people, implying they all are extremely biased and without nuance.

The left often picks on the most extreme examples of the right, and the right often picks the most extreme examples of the left as arguments for their position being the better one. 

The point isn't to pick on the extremists but to try to be as objective as one can when an issue is raised. Tall order I know.

Edited May 23, 2022 by puporing

[SeaMonster]

The problem with people on this forum is that they think there is this one world culture that applies to everyone.

This is an Israeli article.  Israeli men probably have much more testosterone than your typical American or European guy.  Maybe their pickup is more aggressive, who knows? But their entire culture is much more aggressive too, for excellent survival reasons. 

On the other hand, the author has freakin' gender pronouns in her Twitter profile, and is an English Lit major, so she has likely been marinading in Anglo type feminism her whole adult life and gets a girl boner trying to apply US/EU standards to Israeli men.

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by SeaMonster

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The article is correct that pickup culture is sexist, toxic, manipulative, and fundamentally dysfunctional. Incel culture is even worse.

I have always said that.

Like how do "normal people" get girls: Tinder? is swiping left and right really more healthy than a good old street approach?
I feel like that a guy who lands girls from Tinder is seen as an upstanding citizen but a guy that approaches girls on the street is demonized as a desperate, crazy, sexist loser. 

To be honest, I just do it to land a lovely girl I can make my girlfriend. Pick-up did corrupt my attitudes towards women a little bit. On the one hand, I think women are really sweet and pure creatures but on the other hand, It is also frustrating as fuck in how flaky and non-caring they are when dating considering the enormous effort and inner struggle that I have to go through. Still, I realize this is self-centered corruption but damn sometimes girls drive me insane with their cute flirtiness followed by flakes. 

I hope getting a loving girlfriend will heal this wound and make me more healthy.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

7 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

This is an Israeli article.  Israeli men probably have much more testosterone than your typical American or European guy.  Maybe their pickup is more aggressive, who knows? But their entire culture is much more aggressive too, for excellent survival reasons. 

I wouldn't say this is true. The ("secular youth") culture is really open, caring and much more socially free than anything in Europe. 

[something_else]

43 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Like how do "normal people" get girls: Tinder?

Primarily friend groups, work, nights out

46 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

girls on the street is demonized as a desperate, crazy, sexist loser. 

IMO if you go out onto a busy high street purely to approach every girl that walks by, you are being a public nuisance

I think you should keep the spam approaching to nights out, and only approach occasionally during the day if you encounter a girl you find attractive

I would say that is healthier and less desperate/creepy

Most criticism of pickup is only targeted at the dudes who spam approach during the day, because if you are bad at this you end up making a lot of girls very uncomfortable

9 hours ago, Raze said:

I didn’t say just a man talking to a woman, I said a man approaching a woman, as in trying to pick her up. Their activism got the pick up artist simulator removed from PlayStation because they considered it supporting harassment. The old simple pickup channel was also regularly accused of promoting street harassment simply for promoting men approaching women. 

They are mostly against guys who spam approach on the street during the day, which is honestly pretty understandable

I doubt any of them have a big problem with guys approaching girls on a night out

[zazen]

Dating / pick up can cause you to mature as you go through the pain of rejection and loss, learning to rely on yourself for emotional well being. Why trauma healing and presence work is so important, mini rejections and break ups are like mini traumas. Presence goes beyond the pain/pleasure cycle, and the constant exposure to pain should lead us to what is beyond pleasure/pain which ultimately is spiritual development. Most people in society we interact with aren't usually working on that or growing from it and instead become wounded in stead of wise, and bitter instead of better. One has to learn to deal with the guilt of the collateral damage left along the way. You could rationalise that its good for our emotional development when rejected, left or cheated on but most people can't handle it. We become less able to love and be loved, closed off, commitment phobic, and nihilistic in the end ie black pill or women angry at men these days for not wanting marriage etc.

 

Pick up and the knowledge in the red pill sphere is double edged. Whats bad for women/society (hook ups leading to baggage, emotional/familial break down) is described, but whats prescribed is to spin plates, pick up ( un ethically) and have rotations, causing the very society complained about in the end. Then they say just 'enjoy the decline' when they are living in that very declining society. Gaming and hook ups can set the precedence of enjoying variety / novelty, the thrill of the hunt and the dopamine it provides like an addiction. If intelligent, you can stop chasing the rush as with any addiction as you realise it never fulfils you deeply and only provides fleeting pleasure. Pleasures are external, joy is internal. Another option is to find pleasures that don't harm others emotionally beside pick up.

 

Pick up guys say leave women better than you find them as a way to get around the guilt of hurting them. How can a guy reconcile pick up / dating casually and 'alpha widowing' women ie being so good that you leave a emotional imprint on her, causing her dissatisfaction in her future relationships with lesser men? Its the fact that you leave them better off and your such a great guy that can actually hurt even more that they lost a catch. Picking up is one thing, but dropping off is another. Every drop hurts, and going backwards, in relationships or lifestyle is always painful as comparison is the thief of joy. We only appear to live in the moment, but really we live in and through the past.

 

A smaller and smaller sub group of men enjoy the pleasures of the dating market taking the women away from the average guys, and ruining these same women when they settle for less than what they experienced and which they got a taste of shortly. Morally you can clear your conscience if your upfront about your intentions and what you want, but even we know that women will try win a guys commitment through sex and time spent together, bonding them and inevitably getting hurt in the process of failing that.

 

Marriage is too risky, casual dating makes the moral kind feel guilt, celibacy requires transcendence. This is where we'r at in the modern era. We live in modern times, and act modern, yet expect traditional marriage to still work. We need new models to adapt to the modern times or else having traditional expectations placed onto modern humans in a modern environment is a recipe for disappointment and frustration when those traditional expectations aren't met in relationships. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I feel like that a guy who lands girls from Tinder is seen as an upstanding citizen but a guy that approaches girls on the street is demonized as a desperate, crazy, sexist loser.

We are not talking about individual guys, we are talking about a sub-culture. Pickup is a toxic sub-culture, and it makes itself look bad with its attitude and approach towards women. A respectable person would not want to be associated with such a sub-culture.

[Vrubel]

4 hours ago, something_else said:

MO if you go out onto a busy high street purely to approach every girl that walks by, you are being a public nuisance

I think you should keep the spam approaching to nights out, and only approach occasionally during the day if you encounter a girl you find attractive

I would say that is healthier and less desperate/creepy

 

I largely agree here. That's also the reason I only day-game alone because it sometimes gets too cringy watching others. Even at nights out it's fucking cringy to enter a bar, disperse and approach every hot girl there. The most cringy form of game is when a dude just stands on a street and stops every girl walking through.

Having said that, people don't really give a shit about it. If I didn't know about pick up and saw some guy approaching a girl on a busy street I would probably think nothing of it. Like they could know each other or he is asking for directions. Of course, given that the approach is nonchalant and not clownish.

 

2 hours ago, zazen said:

Dating / pick up can cause you to mature as you go through the pain of rejection and loss, learning to rely on yourself for emotional well being. Why trauma healing and presence work is so important, mini rejections and break ups are like mini traumas.

Amen!

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

We are not talking about individual guys, we are talking about a sub-culture. Pickup is a toxic sub-culture, and it makes itself look bad with its attitude and approach towards women. A respectable person would not want to be associated with such a sub-culture.

Oke, I am not really deep into the community. Like I did a boot camp with PUAs, but day game alone and only very recently started going out with the "community members". Most are chill and open but at the end of the day, they're just young guys looking for sex and love. That's almost every man in the universe but they do it on a more systematic and consistent level so to speak. Likewise, every man can shit talk and act obnoxiously but this doesn't mean that they are abusive dicks.
I obviously cannot look into their personal lives and see how they treat women but to be honest they don't seem particularly dickish at least not more so than an average guy. Like, have you seen some of the non-PUA people that go out and how dickish and obnoxious they seem? And even for most PUAs getting laid is relatively scarce. When they land a girl it's a big deal for them.
 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Vrubel

[Striving for more]

On 23/05/2022 at 10:17 AM, something_else said:

IMO if you go out onto a busy high street purely to approach every girl that walks by, you are being a public nuisance

I think you should keep the spam approaching to nights out, and only approach occasionally during the day if you encounter a girl you find attractive

Completely fucking disagree. 

Day Game is beautiful I love it. 

I don't want to sacrifice building my lifestyle & losing sleep for pickup anymore. 

I enjoy day game way more, it's more sustainable for me, less draining, expensive time consuming. 

Obvisouly night game is amazing too but you must have logistics money live near the club ect.. otherwise it's too costly. So Ideally just do both if you got the freedom to do it. 

Day game requires more bools and courage, grows you way more.

It allows me to improve my game, gain charisma and even gain some quick energy (overcoming approach anxiety and approaching a pretty feminine woman that you're normally afraid of, even when it goes horribly just makes me feel like a  man afterwards and I can plough that energy back into becoming financially independent, creativity business ideas ... (That energy of initiative, that proactive decisive bold energy) ... 

P.s : here's an insight > Whatever you think of as "Taboo & unacceptable" is really just your fearful imagination playing tricks on you ... I almost didn't approach a woman at work because "she's working leave her alone", turns out she was bored & she even asked me for my details as I walked off. Yes I will approach on the train too, I'll do it anywhere because why fucking not. 

Quote

IMO if you go out onto a busy high street purely to approach every girl that walks by, you are being a public nuisance

Why would you approach every girl that goes by? You're approaching every attractive girl that goes by, even then it's not like "every woman", if you're doing it right you'd practice day game in a big city like New York where there's fucking millions of people ... No one gives a shit that you approached 20 women in several hours ... you'll probably walk past like 20,000 people in that time span just on one street lol. 

I'll probably do a more in depth journal about this but Day Game is beautiful that's for sure. 

P.S several women will always love that you approached them & they'll smile and be so happy about it, I can confirm this even as a newbie with no game. Those micro moments of connection are 100X Worth all the rejections. 

Anyway, I have no intention to debate on this one or read many of the comments because I know that Day Game is vital part of my growth & obviously developing game ... I'm not gonna just give in to the social matrix and like a self - conscious polite little simp go along with all the mainstream views, day game is beautiful and I will do it way more because of this

Edited May 25, 2022 by Striving for more

[Striving for more]

The paradoxical thing is though, I'm actually inclined to delete my comment above.

You know why? I want OP's posts like these tbf ... less competition for me. 

Also, if too many guys started day gaming in the same area, that would be a problem.

Good thing it's taboo to the media and emotionally challenging, good thing it's a rare skill like if everyone was a millionaire it wouldn't be so thrilling. 

It's only valubale because it's rare, if every other guy is confident & approaching then it just kinda sucks haha. 

SO yeah fuck pick up CULTURE, let the media scare away the competition

Edited May 25, 2022 by Striving for more