This is why I don't understand God

[somegirl]

[gettoefl]

god wants to be selfish for a bit ... selfish is like taking a holiday on a tropical island with only companions sun sea surf

god knows that ego wants to be god, god knows how good it is, to be god that is

god wants ego to see that a limited tropical island will soon get pretty boring

make the universe your vacation spot, make friends with all, don't try to subjugate and dominate

Edited May 21, 2022 by gettoefl

[somegirl]

2 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Without Ego, you cannot be an experiencer of reality, you just become a reality. Thus, God made endless divisions within itself, to experience itself from endless amount of POVs. God isn't surprised at all.

Yeah but I often hear Leo say "Everything is God, you're just too selfish to see/too this and that to see."

And I'm like... But God created us this way (or we created ourselves to be this way) so I don't know why now it's our fault that we are this way. We were created with ego. We were created to experience this life in human form and to want things. So now when we use that ability that is given to us, we're almost judged for "being selfish".

Of course we can strive for more spiritual things, which we are, given we're on this forum, but wanting "material stuff" is literally the reason we are alive in human form today. We cannot live without food, social acceptance, sex, love etc. 

 

2 hours ago, gettoefl said:

god wants ego to see that a limited tropical island will soon get pretty boring

Yeah but I still want that tropical island even though it will get boring. lol I mean...  If that's selfish then I don't know what isn't. Why is there such a thing created if I'm gonna be judged to be wanting such "material stuff".  We are created as human beings that are able to wish for things. And then when we wish for something, someone is like "Oh no no, that's selfish". Well, then let me be selfish because all humans have ego. Why create ego if you're gonna judge it.

This is why this meme is good representation of that. It's like... You create a being and give it certain abilities, and then get surprised when that being uses those abilities. Then why the heck give it in the first place if it's bad or if it's "creating karma". Doesn't make sense.

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by somegirl

[somegirl]

27 minutes ago, Benton said:

Where is this surprised God? Why would God judge herself? 

I agree, but why are we then called selfish for using our human abilities we are given in the first place?

Edited May 21, 2022 by somegirl

[zurew]

1 minute ago, somegirl said:

Sure, but why are we then called selfish for using our human abilities we are given in the first place?

One selfish calls the other one selfish,its a judgement coming from another ego. 

We can phrase selfishness in a different way though:

We are not selfish, rather we are expressing God in our own unique ways.

34 minutes ago, somegirl said:

This is why this meme is good representation of that. It's like... You create a being and give it certain abilities, and then get surprised when that being uses those abilities. Then why the heck give it in the first place if it's bad or if it's "creating karma". Doesn't make sense.

You are phrasing this in a way, where there is no room left for free fill. God is everything all the good and evil combined, there is nothing that is not God. Being in a certain way is not selfish its just Is.

The value judgement can only come from a finite being (ego). Judgements can be practical sometimes but they aren't universal and you don't have to take them seriously even if they come from Leo. By definition having a finite ego, you can't live up to God's standards because you are limited to a certain structure and you can't express Absoluteness as a finite ego. You can work on being less selfish and getting closer to God, that would be the point of spirituality and this is what Leo is pointing to when he is calling you selfish. He is selfish as well, but he wants his viewers to do the work and to embody love and spirituality as much as they can.

Although, on the other hand you can realize your True nature and understand yourself and the world fully, but at that point, there will be no one else to judge because you will realize that you are Everything.

[Arthogaan]

God has not a surprised Pikachu face when he sees that we act selfishly. He intended it that way, and it is perfect. He has this face: 

[The Mystical Man]

God isn't surprised. Surprise is a human emotion. God just is.

[somegirl]

1 hour ago, The Mystical Man said:

God isn't surprised. Surprise is a human emotion. God just is.

But God is Pikachu too.

Edited May 21, 2022 by somegirl

[somegirl]

4 hours ago, Benton said:

Why do you think it matters if you are acting selfishly?

Isn't there such thing as karma? There is a price to pay when someone's being too selfish. I think Leo also mentioned karma a couple of times.

5 hours ago, Benton said:

This comes down to you imagining a difference between you and God. You judging yourself for whatever, is God judging you. If you want God to stop judging you, then stop judging yourself. Even other people. Don't judge their judgments, don't even judge your own judgments. Aim to understand.

Beautiful advice. ?

5 hours ago, Benton said:

Every experience you have ever had was only present because it is allowed. God allows all. Even non-acceptance is allowed because we do experience it. But it's true name is acceptance. As that is the only reason the experience can be present.

Because it is allowed, that's interesting. So some people simply do not allow themselves to experience things they say they want?

And btw, if I may ask, are you saying this because you yourself realized God? (aka had direct experience of it)

[somegirl]

@Arthogaan lol.

God loves everything they see, I can imagine that being their face when looking at us lol.

[Tristan12]

9 hours ago, somegirl said:

Yeah but I often hear Leo say "Everything is God, you're just too selfish to see/too this and that to see."

And I'm like... But God created us this way (or we created ourselves to be this way) so I don't know why now it's our fault that we are this way. We were created with ego. We were created to experience this life in human form and to want things. So now when we use that ability that is given to us, we're almost judged for "being selfish".

This is just how Leo teaches, he can be sort of critical sometimes, but in reality you're right, it doesn't make sense to judge a being for being selfish when it was literally made to be selfish. There is nothing wrong for a living being with an ego to be selfish, because its just in our nature, and God loves and understands that completely. Of course to reach God we have to drop that selfishness, but it doesn't mean we have to do it in a condemning manner and judge ourselves for having it in the first place. We can love and empathize with ourselves through all of our selfish ways and thus transcend them through love rather than beating ourselves up about it.

9 hours ago, somegirl said:

Yeah but I still want that tropical island even though it will get boring. lol I mean...  If that's selfish then I don't know what isn't. Why is there such a thing created if I'm gonna be judged to be wanting such "material stuff".  We are created as human beings that are able to wish for things. And then when we wish for something, someone is like "Oh no no, that's selfish". Well, then let me be selfish because all humans have ego. Why create ego if you're gonna judge it.

This is why this meme is good representation of that. It's like... You create a being and give it certain abilities, and then get surprised when that being uses those abilities. Then why the heck give it in the first place if it's bad or if it's "creating karma". Doesn't make sense.

People might judge you for being selfish, but God would never do that, because you're exactly right, why create ego if you're gonna judge it.

This is why I think the classical definition of karma is BS. Why would the universe design a creature to be selfish and commit devilry and then judge and punish it for being that way? It makes no sense. Of course actions have consequences, and you can do negative or selfish things that then land you in a lot of suffering, but the suffering is not meant as a punishment, its just the result of your actions, and it should help you to make wiser decisions about how you act.

The idea of being punished for your negative actions through karma could never work to make a person more loving and less selfish, because then a person would be loving and good out of the desire to avoid negative consequences, which is still a selfish desire. Only when a person stops caring about karma/being punished and is loving just for its own sake, only then would they be truly loving and selfless. Karma makes no sense, especially in a universe that is absolutely loving.

[Esilda]

@somegirl what in life do you want to know more than anything else? 

I find the whole god realisation a little weird and off for me, it really feels like spiritual gurus are competing against one another. If they could come up with something greater than god realised they would and the person that got their first would say they were more conscious than all the other spiritual leaders so people should follow them.

What is selfishness anyway? Who invented the idea? I think that people are simply raised differently and have different levels of love. Have you ever heard of the spoiled only child syndrome? ???

Edited May 22, 2022 by Esilda

[Carl-Richard]

16 hours ago, somegirl said:

Isn't there such thing as karma? There is a price to pay when someone's being too selfish. I think Leo also mentioned karma a couple of times.

What do you think karma is specifically?

[somegirl]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What do you think karma is specifically?

I have always equated it with something bad/negative. Like universe is out to get you if you're doing selfish stuff, and you will pay for it sooner or later (abortion for example). 

I don't remember clearly but one time I was reading about someones miserable life experience and someone commented "It's probably a built up karma from past life." And I'm like... Damn, is that really how it works? Someone's making a note and keeping it and dragging it even in your "next life" (if it exists)? ?

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by somegirl

[thisintegrated]

The Blue perspective:

2 minutes ago, somegirl said:

"It's probably a built up karma from past life."

 

The Yellow perspective:

10 hours ago, Benton said:

Karma is consequence. It's not a punishment.

 

[Carl-Richard]

34 minutes ago, somegirl said:

I have always equated it with something bad/negative. Like universe is out to get you if you're doing selfish stuff, and you will pay for it sooner or later (abortion for example). 

I don't remember clearly but one time I was reading about someones miserable life experience and someone commented "It's probably a built up karma from past life." And I'm like... Damn, is that really how it works? Someone's making a note and keeping it and dragging it even in your "next life" (if it exists)? ?

It's ironically enough a very Christian interpretation of karma, equating it with sin (that there is an objective moral code whereby you're judged by an ultimate authority). Karma as conceived by the Hindus is much more subtle than that. It's more akin to a law of nature, like cause and effect, than a mystical scoreboard for good and bad actions. Now, it can still explain why so-called bad things happen to bad people. For instance, repeating an action many times makes it more likely that you'll do it in the future (strengthening of synapses, cognitive schemas etc.), so doing more bad stuff will make you more bad over time, and this influences how you respond to events and how other people respond to you (which also tends to be bad).

[somegirl]

23 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

The Blue perspective:

27 minutes ago, somegirl said:

"It's probably a built up karma from past life."

 

The Yellow perspective:

11 hours ago, Benton said:

Karma is consequence. It's not a punishment.

 

This is good ?

9 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's ironically enough a very Christian interpretation of karma, equating it with sin (that there is an objective moral code whereby you're judged by an ultimate authority). Karma as conceived by the Hindus is much more subtle than that. It's more akin to a law of nature, like cause and effect, than a mystical scoreboard for good and bad actions. Now, this more subtle notion of karma is still able to explain why so-called bad actions lead to more bad things happening for yourself, but it's just that the "bad" part is something you bring to the table yourself, as an interpretation. For instance, repeating an action many times makes it more likely that you'll do it in the future (strengthening of synapses, cognitive schemas etc.), and doing more bad stuff will make you more bad over time, and bad things tend to happen as a result of that.

I see, thanks for clarification.

I was just confused because Leo mentioned it couple of times as a consequence of being selfish, and it didn't make sense that God would punish you for something, even if you're selfish, if God loves everything. And yes, it sounded very christian.

But I guess I was interpreting karma the wrong way. 

[zurew]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Now, this more subtle notion of karma is still able to explain why so-called bad actions lead to more bad things happening for yourself, but it's just that the "bad" part is something you bring to the table yourself, as an interpretation. For instance, repeating an action many times makes it more likely that you'll do it in the future (strengthening of synapses, cognitive schemas etc.), and doing more bad stuff will make you more bad over time, and bad things tend to happen as a result of that.

Thats one good way to summarize it. The only thing i would add to this is that intentionality doesn't necessarily matter ,only the outcomes ( we can think about karma just like we think about physics). And one plus thing is that we tend to think about karma from the finite ego's perspective.

Some people tend to make an argument that this and that murderer killed x many people and after that they killed themselves, so they succesfully escaped the potential "punishment" or "justice". That would be true, if we would be only looking at it from an individual's perspective. Because everyone and everything is you, the consequences of your actions will hit you back. We don't necessarily need to add things like rebirth here to explain these things.

Edited May 22, 2022 by zurew

[interim]

This is frankly a topic beyond most people's "pay grade"... 

First, the idea of a "creationist" god that makes us to function in a particular way is absolutely ridiculous. It's a fact, that the Universe is a complex Chaotic structure. Chaos doesn't mean "random", it means set of basic rules that produce very complex results. Since the rules have particular idea, the creation also has particular structure. The ego itself is such complex structure that may have multitude of combinations and realizations. Are all of them "good"? Or how one can say which ones are "good". This is expressed via the actual development of this structure through space and time. It's absolutely naïve, that something is either absolutely "good" or absolutely "bad". So your first point is wrong since the ego is not a single things, it's not fixed. You can't even compare the ego of two different people, since while the rules of its creation were the same, they may take completely different direction. Human and animal egos are also very different. Animal and plant egos - again...

To your second point, God has not reported to any of us, that it is surprised... what you mean, is that many of its creations turned out to be... quite dysfunctional, delusional, degenerative. This goes against this religious idea, that "god is good". Well, sorry, but this is human interpretations. The source of the creation is beyond any description. It contains everything around us. You can compare it with your own mind, which is not uniform, it contains a lot of stuff, with the potential of even more. Not all of these things can be described as "good". It's up to you, to gain understanding about yourself. Therefore, it's the same for "god".

About the selfishness, it has two aspects - one is the experience, the other is perception. Animals have the experience of being selfish, but ultimately, they are all part of the same natural system which works in uniform together. Their perception is the instinct. The conflicts we see in nature, are just on individual level. The bigger picture however, resembles the will\rules of the creation. There is no conflict there, nature as a whole. The human world however is different, since you have the capacity to have mind of your own. Therefore you are not just selfish, you have also self absorbed perception. You don't really have "the big picture" (like an animal) and your strive for ego expression is channeled also through very small capacity of intellectual understanding. People's brains are small, very small compared to nature as whole. Therefore, just because you have the perception that you act selfishly, doesn't mean you actually act in your interest. To put in more simply, any ecosystem acts in a way to preserve it, not rationally, but as part of the natural instincts of all the inhabitants. They developed not individually, not by a choice, but as part of the natural evolution through millions of years of evolution. However, by now trying to use your small human underdeveloped brain, you try to act in self interest, which inevitably contains also the interest of the whole ecosystem, but you fail. New thing is born in this system - it's the seed of self destruction. And this process is inevitable. 

Didn't "god" saw all this? Well... will ask when I have the chance... but the simple answer is, it's your turn to experience  and understand these things. You can't live as a child your whole life. The religions created this false narrative, that you are a child and someone will take care of you, tell you what to do... For what we know, whatever created the Big Bang, left or entered its own creation. Choose whatever you want to believe, the fact is - you are on your own. And resolution of this problem is in your own personal mind, not in even nature. This personal mind, which is your biggest enemy, is also the solution. Our natural state is that we don't know the truth, you are correct - you, almost all of us do not understand what is going on. We play this game of perception and delusion, without knowing why, without knowing even who we are. Who did that to us? Some god, or maybe we? I've spend unhealthy time communicating with people, and now I'm convinced, it's the second one. Therefore I do not believe is a creation sperate from its creator. You don't understand god, since you don't understand yourself. So, in some way... it's really simple.

[somegirl]

18 hours ago, interim said:

Animals have the experience of being selfish,

How can you know that? 

18 hours ago, interim said:

Therefore you are not just selfish, you have also self absorbed perception. You don't really have "the big picture" (like an animal)

I don't have a big picture like an animal? Sure, I don't, but how do you know an animal does? 
 

18 hours ago, interim said:

Didn't "god" saw all this? Well... will ask when I have the chance... but the simple answer is, it's your turn to experience  and understand these things. You can't live as a child your whole life. The religions created this false narrative, that you are a child and someone will take care of you, tell you what to do...

Have you had direct experience of it? Of God and the structure of reality?
 

18 hours ago, interim said:

And resolution of this problem is in your own personal mind, not in even nature. This personal mind, which is your biggest enemy, is also the solution.

Agree.

18 hours ago, interim said:

We play this game of perception and delusion, without knowing why, without knowing even who we are. Who did that to us? Some god, or maybe we? I've spend unhealthy time communicating with people, and now I'm convinced, it's the second one.

Well, again, God created us this way. They knew what will happen.

So the religious judging a person just because it behaves like a person is ridiculous to me.

I have never been religious, but I was confused with the karma thing because Leo mentioned it couple of times, and I know he is not in Stage Blue... Karma is something that is mentioned among religious people, not Stage Yellow and above people.