Will the progressive movement ever win in the future or has it become a lost cause?

[Hardkill]

for several years now, the progressives have loudly protesting until they are blue in the face, have been doing political activism like crazy all around the country, putting in 110% of their efforts in running for all kinds of various offices from the local levels to the highest national levels all throughout the country, trying as hard as they can to pressure Democratic leadership and Congressmen to pass more liberal legislation, etc., etc., etc. that they have been doing.

Sure, the progressives have now become the largest House Democrat ideological caucus in Congress, and have recently won a few more local races in some big cities like Boston. Yes, Bernie gave Hillary a run for her money in the 2016 and gave Biden a run for his money in 2020. AOC, has indeed become a popular liberal amongst young voters in America for a few years.

Yet, none of the progressives have been able to achieve anything materially for any American citizens.

Other movements in history such as Gandhi's movement nonviolent independence movement, abolition movement in the 1800s, both the progressive movement women's rights movement around the turn of the 20th century, the civil rights movements for blacks in the mid 1900s, the latino movement in the mid 1900s, the gay rights movements all succeeded with their goals. 

But why hasn't the contemporary progressive movement in the US been able to make any real significant progress for many years now?

Will the progressives be able to win in the end, but we just to wait for many more years until they finally achieve success, or the establishment democrats and conservatives right about their movement having become a totally hopeless cause?

[puporing]

5 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

or the establishment democrats and conservatives right about their movement having become a totally hopeless cause?

Maybe it's "hopeless" if you believe that it's hopeless .

[Hardkill]

32 minutes ago, puporing said:

Maybe it's "hopeless" if you believe that it's hopeless .

Idk. No offense, but that kinda sounds like a cliche.

 

[Yarco]

Yes but it'll take a generation or two. Progressive stuff is unpopular with the average American, even the average Democrat still. You gotta wait at least 20 years for boomers to die off.

Think how long the ideas of women voting or ending slavery must've been around before they actually took root. 

Most of "The Squad" has only been in elected positions for like 3 years.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Yarco

[Hardkill]

58 minutes ago, Yarco said:

Yes but it'll take a generation or two. Progressive stuff is unpopular with the average American, even the average Democrat still. You gotta wait at least 20 years for boomers to die off.

Think how long the ideas of women voting or ending slavery must've been around before they actually took root. 

Most of "The Squad" has only been in elected positions for like 3 years.

Yeah, but from what I understand movements like the abolition movement  were able to incrementally make some kind of concrete progress for society in some way every 5-10 years until they successfully completed their ultimate objectives.

The progressive faction in America was established in the early 90s back when Bernie first became a far left member of the House of Representative chamber, and so far I haven’t seen or learned of any real incremental progress that any of the progressives have ever made since then. Am I wrong?

[Gidiot]

You worry way too much my friend.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, Gidiot said:

You worry way too much my friend.

I am not just worried. The more I realize how many problems our society has the more depressed I become.

Plus, the more I follow politics the more upset and indignant I become with conservatives as a whole for constantly trying to stop any kind of progress from happening and for causing way more lives to be lost in America in the long-run than liberals.

Also, I am feeling very discouraged by the fact that the progressives have never been able to get anything done for our country and that we are still living through a painful regressive period.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[Preety_India]

It takes an incredibly long time for real change to occur. Till then keep hoping for the best and be prepared for the worst. 

[Razard86]

12 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I am not just worried. The more I realize how many problems our society has the more depressed I become.

Plus, the more I follow politics the more upset and indignant I become with conservatives as a whole for constantly trying to stop any kind of progress from happening and for causing way more lives to be lost in America in the long-run than liberals.

Also, I am feeling very discouraged by the fact that the progressives have never been able to get anything done for our country and that we are still living through a painful regressive period.

If finding out problems in America gets you depressed....stop searching for problems. I don't know if you realize...every time you solve one problem...you create another problem. Because of the increase in technology...human have become more sedentary...as a result they became fat. As humans built their roads...and highways they became more disconnected from nature...and thus started to feel separate from it and as a result did not care when they harmed it. 

When you solve one problem you create a new problem.....so stop worrying about problems....they will always be there. Just focus on solutions you know you can implement.

[trenton]

11 hours ago, Hardkill said:

other movements in history such as Gandhi's movement nonviolent independence movement, abolition movement in the 1800s, both the progressive movement women's rights movement around the turn of the 20th century, the civil rights movements for blacks in the mid 1900s, the latino movement in the mid 1900s, the gay rights movements all succeeded with their goals. 

One way I think of government is that it never brings about deep systemic itself. The best you will get is policy reform. The government is naturally resistant to change because it is stuck in previous survival strategies that and must demonize the "radical left" in order to maintain its sense of order.

In many of the examples you mentioned, these changes were not thanks to the government, but rather the mass mobilization of millions. Real change comes from changing how people think, rather than fighting in the futile back and forth of passing progressive policies only for it to be stripped away by the next conservative in office. Perhaps abortion is an example of this with roe vs wade. And remember the abolition movement was only successful thanks to a very bloody civil war, not peaceful election and persuasion.

If you look at progressive members of Congress, you will find further proof that government is not designed for deep systemic change and it has a heavy bias toward the status quo. Many progressive members still take money from oil companies, this causing them to over promise on environmental issues and there are pressures on place causing most progressives to vote on favor of military spending, security, and the war on terror which is rarely referred to as the oil wars or water wars. Most progressives in office are limited in the kinds of changes they are able to make because of these pressures.

I can think of many necessary movements to bring about change beyond public policy. Challenging the FDA and EPA guidelines on pfas, heavy metals, and micro plastics, arguing that the food industry is responsible for 80% of American health issues comes to mind. There is so much money on the line that change will never come from the government hence the safety guidelines are both dated and poorly enforced. Only wide spread mobilization can challenge money in politics. Mass polarization in America does not help as we are the most polarized nation in the world and it makes it impossible to reason with a very partisan Trump supporter.

[Hardkill]

8 hours ago, trenton said:

One way I think of government is that it never brings about deep systemic itself. The best you will get is policy reform. The government is naturally resistant to change because it is stuck in previous survival strategies that and must demonize the "radical left" in order to maintain its sense of order.

In many of the examples you mentioned, these changes were not thanks to the government, but rather the mass mobilization of millions. Real change comes from changing how people think, rather than fighting in the futile back and forth of passing progressive policies only for it to be stripped away by the next conservative in office. Perhaps abortion is an example of this with roe vs wade. And remember the abolition movement was only successful thanks to a very bloody civil war, not peaceful election and persuasion.

If you look at progressive members of Congress, you will find further proof that government is not designed for deep systemic change and it has a heavy bias toward the status quo. Many progressive members still take money from oil companies, this causing them to over promise on environmental issues and there are pressures on place causing most progressives to vote on favor of military spending, security, and the war on terror which is rarely referred to as the oil wars or water wars. Most progressives in office are limited in the kinds of changes they are able to make because of these pressures.

I can think of many necessary movements to bring about change beyond public policy. Challenging the FDA and EPA guidelines on pfas, heavy metals, and micro plastics, arguing that the food industry is responsible for 80% of American health issues comes to mind. There is so much money on the line that change will never come from the government hence the safety guidelines are both dated and poorly enforced. Only wide spread mobilization can challenge money in politics. Mass polarization in America does not help as we are the most polarized nation in the world and it makes it impossible to reason with a very partisan Trump supporter.

I agree with all of that. 

So, do you think that the reason why the progressives haven't been able to succeed yet is because their movement is still way too small and weak?

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hardkill

[trenton]

3 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I agree with all of that. 

So, do you think that the reason why the progressives haven't been able to succeed yet is because their movement is still way too small and weak?

@Hardkill unfortunately, I think this is the case. When I think of a movement, I am thinking on the scale of MLK, Ghandi, and others. Another example of bringing about change, although a bad change would be the events of January 6th. I am not saying that we should be violent, but if you look at the scale, how many people showed up in that massive hoard united under one purpose, then that is roughly what the size of the progressive movement should look like across the country.

Another idea for a movement I have in mind is about climate change and the rampant human rights violations of oil companies who are responsible for many tragedies across the globe. Chevron owes over 50 billion dollars in lawsuits for their environmental destruction, they pretend nothing is happening, and they use judicial harassment on prosecutors trying to hold them accountable for their actions. Meanwhile, Shell is manipulating entire governments and militaries in order to kill environmental activists in South eastern Nigeria. This oil companies will stop at nothing to slit your throat if you get in the way of their profits. You can just look at the history of union busting and How they used to use machine guns and WW1 planes to bomb protesters. There is even the use of financial terrorism to remove people from their homes using PMCs to damage cameras arguing that you owe them money when you don't. Even the judges will ignore these blatant crimes because they fail to recuse themselves when they hold stock in the companies involved.

This atrocities are not gonna be fixed with a couple of protests because there is way too much money and political corruption tied to environmental issues. As MLK would put it, humanity needs a revolution of moral values. We have subordinated the well being of mankind to the dollar and by tying the dollar to oil we have locked ourselves in endless militarization to place puppet governments in power across the globe. America is using its military power to subvert democracy in many nations which would otherwise flourish. The CIA admits all of these things as they use the pretense of stopping the commies all to maintain global domination by monopolizing oil and water to maximize profits.

This is the attitude that the progressive movement needs, and this is roughly the scale of the movement we should be thinking of if we want change.

These are the kinds of politicians we need to be supporting.

Minutes 10-11 are what I'm talking about.

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/09/28/federal-judges-failed-to-recuse-in-hundreds-of-cases/#:~:text=Over 100 federal judges failed to recuse themselves,a company involved in a case before them.

If you want change, this is the scale I have in mind. Of course dont be violent and murder people, but we need a "revolution of moral values" as we properly confront these crimes against humanity.

[Hardkill]

1 hour ago, trenton said:

@Hardkill unfortunately, I think this is the case. When I think of a movement, I am thinking on the scale of MLK, Ghandi, and others. Another example of bringing about change, although a bad change would be the events of January 6th. I am not saying that we should be violent, but if you look at the scale, how many people showed up in that massive hoard united under one purpose, then that is roughly what the size of the progressive movement should look like across the country.

Another idea for a movement I have in mind is about climate change and the rampant human rights violations of oil companies who are responsible for many tragedies across the globe. Chevron owes over 50 billion dollars in lawsuits for their environmental destruction, they pretend nothing is happening, and they use judicial harassment on prosecutors trying to hold them accountable for their actions. Meanwhile, Shell is manipulating entire governments and militaries in order to kill environmental activists in South eastern Nigeria. This oil companies will stop at nothing to slit your throat if you get in the way of their profits. You can just look at the history of union busting and How they used to use machine guns and WW1 planes to bomb protesters. There is even the use of financial terrorism to remove people from their homes using PMCs to damage cameras arguing that you owe them money when you don't. Even the judges will ignore these blatant crimes because they fail to recuse themselves when they hold stock in the companies involved.

This atrocities are not gonna be fixed with a couple of protests because there is way too much money and political corruption tied to environmental issues. As MLK would put it, humanity needs a revolution of moral values. We have subordinated the well being of mankind to the dollar and by tying the dollar to oil we have locked ourselves in endless militarization to place puppet governments in power across the globe. America is using its military power to subvert democracy in many nations which would otherwise flourish. The CIA admits all of these things as they use the pretense of stopping the commies all to maintain global domination by monopolizing oil and water to maximize profits.

This is the attitude that the progressive movement needs, and this is roughly the scale of the movement we should be thinking of if we want change.

These are the kinds of politicians we need to be supporting.

Minutes 10-11 are what I'm talking about.

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/09/28/federal-judges-failed-to-recuse-in-hundreds-of-cases/#:~:text=Over 100 federal judges failed to recuse themselves,a company involved in a case before them.

If you want change, this is the scale I have in mind. Of course dont be violent and murder people, but we need a "revolution of moral values" as we properly confront these crimes against humanity.

It looks like though that those movements sadly didn’t end up working for them.

[trenton]

@Hardkill true that is a risk. There are many great movements that failed through history like MLK and his poor people's march. Many of the failed movements are rarely discussed in the educational system today because these movements are still incomplete and threaten the status quo.

Perhaps you think that I am being too idealistic with the progressive movement. At the very least there are a couple of issues that will soon enough chip away at the evils of corporate greed, the Republican party, and religious bigotry. If these ideals are too grand for you, here is my alternative.

The Republican party is starting to have some In fighting with "woke corporations" who are lobbying them. This is happening because of the culture war against LGBTQ. Corporations are currently evolving toward progressive values because their profits improve by separating themselves from bigotry. Unfortunately for them, this attracts progressively minded workers. These are the kinds of people who want to unionize in order to improve their wages and working conditions. These corporations which have been feigning progressive values are being strongly pressured to keep their word. Starbucks and Amazon for example have been backed into a corner and have broken hundreds of laws in their anti-union campaign. Even so the workers are coming out on top.

If you feel pessimistic because of my idealistic approach, then I should mention that I actually feel optimistic about the progressive movement at this slower rate. The Republican party failed in their culture war against homosexuality, and they will fail again in their transgender bigotry. Meanwhile, if we continue to unionize across the nation, then corporations will evolve and wages will improve. On this front corporate greed and religious bigotry are losing to progress.

The issue I am most pessimistic on is climate change and environmental issues. There are so many geo political factors at play and deep governmental corruption because of oil companies and the CIA. In terms of getting money out of politics and making the several necessary constitutional amendments, progress is coming at a snails pace in climate change and it will lead to water wars. If there is any hope on these issues, then just maybe, by pushing corporations to evolve into progressive values through mass unionization, we could get more concessions out of these companies by exposing their green washing campaigns to cover up all of their pollution.

Does this make you more optimistic? Progress may be slow this way, but we might have a realistic chance if we are not discussing movements on the scale of the civil war.

[Hardkill]

14 minutes ago, trenton said:

@Hardkill true that is a risk. There are many great movements that failed through history like MLK and his poor people's march. Many of the failed movements are rarely discussed in the educational system today because these movements are still incomplete and threaten the status quo.

Perhaps you think that I am being too idealistic with the progressive movement. At the very least there are a couple of issues that will soon enough chip away at the evils of corporate greed, the Republican party, and religious bigotry. If these ideals are too grand for you, here is my alternative.

The Republican party is starting to have some In fighting with "woke corporations" who are lobbying them. This is happening because of the culture war against LGBTQ. Corporations are currently evolving toward progressive values because their profits improve by separating themselves from bigotry. Unfortunately for them, this attracts progressively minded workers. These are the kinds of people who want to unionize in order to improve their wages and working conditions. These corporations which have been feigning progressive values are being strongly pressured to keep their word. Starbucks and Amazon for example have been backed into a corner and have broken hundreds of laws in their anti-union campaign. Even so the workers are coming out on top.

If you feel pessimistic because of my idealistic approach, then I should mention that I actually feel optimistic about the progressive movement at this slower rate. The Republican party failed in their culture war against homosexuality, and they will fail again in their transgender bigotry. Meanwhile, if we continue to unionize across the nation, then corporations will evolve and wages will improve. On this front corporate greed and religious bigotry are losing to progress.

The issue I am most pessimistic on is climate change and environmental issues. There are so many geo political factors at play and deep governmental corruption because of oil companies and the CIA. In terms of getting money out of politics and making the several necessary constitutional amendments, progress is coming at a snails pace in climate change and it will lead to water wars. If there is any hope on these issues, then just maybe, by pushing corporations to evolve into progressive values through mass unionization, we could get more concessions out of these companies by exposing their green washing campaigns to cover up all of their pollution.

Does this make you more optimistic? Progress may be slow this way, but we might have a realistic chance if we are not discussing movements on the scale of the civil war.

Well, I could live with progress being slow as long as some progress gets made and eventually leads to massive change overtime.

Btw, why do you think that corporations financially benefit by separating themselves from bigotry?

Also, why do you think that Republicans ended up failing in their culture war against homosexuality?

 

[Eph75]

@Hardkill

The answer to this is simple.

Of course, there can't be anything else, and there never was anything else. 

Progressive has always won every fight throughout history, always. 

What is progressive morphs, and adapts itself to become more effective to bring about change that is needed.

In that sense the progressives are just running the errands of human development and how that development is destined to unfold itself.

It's only when one's time perspective is myopic, and with impatience and lack of understanding how much time evolving society takes, that you fail to see that this is inevitable, and has always been. 

You can compare it with a stock index chart and how it's always moving upward even when times, from a myopic perspective, look grim and the economy appears to be a slaughter house. The next low is progressively higher than the previous lows. 

Same with this. 

At times the movement stagnate, plateaous, to build up pressure to make a stronger leap. 

At times, it takes multiple low lows to build that strengths and find the version of adaptation, progressive self-correction and self-improvement, that allows progress to ensue.

It's the myopic perspective and emotional attachment to change needing to happen sooner than later that brings about doubt in the human system's capability to ever evolve developmentally. 

And yes, the sad part of this is that you and everyone else are just cogs in a system that doesn't guarantee you living the change you long for.

Just as the children and children's children of today's generation will experience the exact same feelings as you do; the desire to realize their desired changes in their current society.

And so progressives progresses.

It's only the being in this moment, in this time, and trying to find an expression that can influence this systemtic machinery in any way possible that helps accelerate this process, to help building a perceived better tomorrow, for someone, not necessarily for you, but for our children, and our children's children. 

Find inspiration, motivation and joy in that, to stay optimistic and supporting rather than resisting that progress. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Eph75

[trenton]

On 5/21/2022 at 11:54 PM, Hardkill said:

Well, I could live with progress being slow as long as some progress gets made and eventually leads to massive change overtime.

Btw, why do you think that corporations financially benefit by separating themselves from bigotry?

Also, why do you think that Republicans ended up failing in their culture war against homosexuality?

 

For the first question, it is about popular support. Restaurants would have a lot of controversy drawn to them if they said "whites only" or they seemed transphobic. An example is my job at a grocery store where they gave us this kind of lesson in gender identity. If workers at a grocery store argue with these people, then it will kick up a lot of controversy which is bad for our reputation. Hence corporations want to be seen as tolerant and accepting of as many customers as possible. "The customer is always right."

 As for the second question, you can look at recent history for evidence. Nowadays republicans are opposed to trans people in the military as they were with "homos in the military." Similarly, homosexuals used to be lumped together with sexual predators as is happening with trans people being harassed in public. You can compare the support for same sex marriage sense the 1980's for further proof or you can look at landmark supreme court decisions. The key term is "compelling interest." There were some supreme court cases in which police officers broke into the wrong home and arrested two gay men. The court argued that police officers lacked a compelling reason to prosecute homosexuals if they are not hurting anybody. Of course with the overturning of roe vs wade there might be other terrible decisions with the politicized supreme court.

Here is an example of how republicans used to behave.

 

[Leo Gura]

On 5/21/2022 at 0:23 AM, Hardkill said:

I am not just worried. The more I realize how many problems our society has the more depressed I become.

Plus, the more I follow politics the more upset and indignant I become

Be careful with this. Don't get wrapped up and distracted by politics and negativity. Focus on your life purpose.

Following too much politics is a mistake that you will regret. Be creative, be constructive. Listening to progressives constantly whine about how bad the world is, is a trap.

[Hardkill]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Be careful with this. Don't get wrapped up and distracted by politics and negativity. Focus on your life purpose.

From both a rational and pragmatic viewpoint, you're right that I should really just be focusing on what I can do myself.

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Following too much politics is a mistake that you will regret. Be creative, be constructive. Listening to progressives constantly whine about how bad the world is, is a trap.

I gotta admit that that is actually what my parents have been telling me for several months now and I never thought that I would end up becoming so addicted to following politics.

I know you keep saying that we are going to have for at least a few decades before the progressives prevail but do you think it's possible that their movement could be a lost cause given the fact that for decades none of their ideas have worked at all to materially improve the lives of everyday Americans?

Also, how likely do you think we'll ever have another period of historic reform like we had during the Jacksonian era, Reconstruction era, early 20th century progressive era, New Deal era, or Great Society era?

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Hardkill said:

but do you think it's possible that their movement could be a lost cause given the fact that for decades none of their ideas have worked at all to materially improve the lives of everyday Americans?

Society is progressing all the time. You're just watching too much politics.