Questions about levels of consciousness

[Shambhu]

@BlueOak

If you are watching a TV program about quarks one minute and then start watching a program about planets the next minute, did the TV become expanded just because the content did?  It doesn't matter if you are thinking about about sex, paying your taxes, having a Kundalini awakening, or experiencing a mind blowing psychedelic trip; they all appear to the same, unchanging Consciousness.

Consciousness is the light by which all things are seen.  It does not grow by illuminating more, and it is not diminished by illuminating less.

[amanen]

I don't think that you can really increase consciousness, but just enter different states of consciousness, since as you said everything is consciousness anyways.

Some states do definitely feel higher, but I don't think this actually is consciousness increasing but the state of consciousness changing.

[Shambhu]

@amanen

1 minute ago, amanen said:

I don't think that you can really increase consciousness, but just enter different states of consciousness, since as you said everything is consciousness anyways.

Some states do definitely feel higher, but I don't think this actually is consciousness increasing but the state of consciousness changing.

Even this is not quite accurate.  The mind has states, but not Consciousness.

When you are dreaming at night, is it a different Consciousness that knows the dream from the Consciousness that knows the waking state, or is there one Consciousness that knows both the waking and dreaming states?  All states of the mind appear to the one, unchanging Consciousness.

[BlueOak]

Just now, Shambhu said:

@BlueOak

If you are watching a TV program about quarks one minute and then start watching a program about planets the next minute, did the TV become expanded just because the content did?  It doesn't matter if you are thinking about about sex, paying your taxes, having a Kundalini awakening, or experiencing a mind blowing psychedelic trip; they all appear to the same, unchanging Consciousness.

Consciousness is the light by which all things are seen.  It does not grow by illuminating more, and it is not diminished by illuminating less.

If that TV was black and white, had a grainy picture. The programming behind it was poorly done. The team was not fully aware of how to make a TV program, they weren't aware of how their subject matter related to the wider world, or why they were making it in the first place. The viewer had yet to realise they were watching or choosing the channel, they were the channel, they were the TV,  why the program was running in them and the TV, what meaning was behind it. They hadn't realised what in the greater context this meant for their life, and more of the intricacies of the watching itself or why this programming was choosing now to be run. On we can go.

More they hadn't yet organized all of that in few, or single sentence to pass on to others, which usually only comes through repetition of a particular part of awareness and self-realisation. 

There is no end to perception and its influence on your life. None. 

All I can tell you is from experience, that the more conscious I am the more I perceive, and the more that changes everything about how I related to the world. Perception is inadequate to describe it, experience of life would be another word to offer.

[amanen]

1 minute ago, Shambhu said:

@amanen

Even this is not quite accurate.  The mind has states, but not Consciousness.

When you are dreaming at night, is it a different Consciousness that knows the dream from the Consciousness that knows the waking state, or is there one Consciousness that knows both the waking and dreaming states?  All states of the mind appear to the one, unchanging Consciousness.

But consciousness is absolutely everything, including all changing and impermament forms, so shouldn't consciousness be both changing and unchanging?

I don't personally even believe in the idea of something called mind as a separate thing from consciousness, I only recognize consciousness

[BlueOak]

If we step outside of ourselves for a moment. We understand humanity no longer lives in caves beating each other with clubs (most of the time). We can see the states of consciousness and awareness that humanity on the planet itself has undertaken. So if you can completely put yourself aside, even in the macro alone you'll see it.

[Shambhu]

@BlueOak

4 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

All I can tell you is from experience, that the more conscious I am the more I perceive...

No matter has much you perceive, Consciousness remains the same.  What you are calling Consciousness is just more mind.

[BlueOak]

Just now, Shambhu said:

@BlueOak

No matter has much you perceive, Consciousness remains the same.  What you are calling Consciousness is just more mind.

Mind is a conception of consciousness.

[Shambhu]

@amanen

7 minutes ago, amanen said:

But consciousness is absolutely everything, including all changing and impermament forms, so shouldn't consciousness be both changing and unchanging?

I don't personally even believe in the idea of something called mind as a separate thing from consciousness, I only recognize consciousness

Mind is not separate from Consciousness, but it is not identical to it either.  I have given many examples above how this is the case.  They are worth contemplating.

[BlueOak]

1 minute ago, Shambhu said:

@amanen

Mind is not separate from Consciousness, but it is not identical to it either.  I have given many examples above how this is the case.  They are worth contemplating.

There is no mind. Anything in consciousness is consciousness. There is nothing but consciousness.

[Shambhu]

2 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Mind is a conception of consciousness.

Concepts are one aspect of mind, not necessarily about Consciousness.  Mind is certainly not conceived by Consciousness.  That would be attributing functions of the mind to Consciousness.

[BlueOak]

1 minute ago, Shambhu said:

Concepts are one aspect of mind, not necessarily about Consciousness.  Mind is certainly not conceived by Consciousness.  That would be attributing functions of the mind to Consciousness.

There are two ways to look at anything. You divide them up and make reasons for their existence or separate when it's useful.
Or you can see them as the same thing.

What conceived mind then if not infinity? What is standing outside of everything making things up? What is there but consciousness here typing these words back to me?

[Shambhu]

@BlueOak

17 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

There is no mind. Anything in consciousness is consciousness. There is nothing but consciousness.

Yes, that is true.  Everything is Consciousness in what it is, just like I can have a gold earring, a gold bracelet, and a gold watch.  Each one is gold, but gold is not a watch, or a bracelet, or an earring.

[Shambhu]

@BlueOak

16 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

What conceived mind...?

Mind conceives.  Consciousness illumines that which is conceived, and it does it without any action or effort, just as the sun gives light without exertion.  

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What is standing outside of everything making things up? What is there but consciousness here typing these words back to me?

When you dream at night, is the mind running through a field, or ruling a kingdom, or fighting a war, or whatever it may be dreaming about?  No, it is not transformed into anything else; although, all these things appear in it.  Everything appears in Consciousness, including the mind, but nothing has really happened at all.   Nothing is done to Consciousness, and Consciousness does nothing at all, except for in appearance.  

[BlueOak]

10 minutes ago, Shambhu said:

@BlueOak

Mind conceives.  Consciousness illumines that which is conceived, and it does it without any action or effort, just as the sun gives light without exertion.  

When you dream at night, is the mind running through a field, or ruling a kingdom, or fighting a war, or whatever it may be dreaming about?  No, it is not transformed into anything else; although, all these things appear in it.  Everything appears in Consciousness, including the mind, but nothing has really happened at all.   Nothing is done to Consciousness, and Consciousness does nothing at all, except for in appearance.  

@Shambhu

Yes. The concept of mind appears in consciousness, whether that is while asleep or awake. It is illuminated by consciousness and eventually, aspects of it are longer necessary, This is what people often speak about when they say they are experiencing stages of mind or consciousness. Identity for example fades away allowing a greater perception of consciousness and awareness grows. Both in the macro around us and in ourselves. (The same thing).

You are not experiencing the entirety of consciousness right now, you realise there is always more to experience or reveal yes? Do you not feel that over your life you have been able to experience more. That there has been noticeable progress in how aware you are now since your younger years?

I feel this conversation has been engaging and allowed me to realise this understanding in more depth, thank you.

Edited May 18, 2022 by BlueOak

[Shambhu]

@BlueOak

3 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

You are not experiencing the entirety of consciousness right now, you realise there is always more to experience or reveal yes? Do you not feel that over your life you have been able to experience more. That there has been noticeable progress in how aware you are now since your younger years?

No, I am not experiencing everything there is to be experienced in this moment, and I have certainly grown as a person over the years.  All of this is in the realm of the mind.  That is my point, or at least part of it.  The other part is that the mind is an appearance in Consciousness, but Consciousness is not an appearance.  Just like a mirror is not the images contained within it, Consciousness is the unchanging substratum of all experience.  

If someone confuses the mind with Consciousness, they will be tempted to always look for a better experience, a better trip, whatever, and they will fail to see the unchanging, perfect, unbroken wholeness that they are in this very moment.

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I feel this conversation has been engaging and allowed me to realise this understanding in more depth, thank you.

You're welcome ;-)

[Leo Gura]

You lack an actual reference experience of consciousness rising. Take a psychedelic and watch it rise. Then you will understand. And until then you won't. It's a phenomena that requires experience.

Yes, you actually increase consciousness. That's the whole point of this work.

[Shambhu]

@Leo Gura

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You lack an actual reference experience of consciousness rising. Take a psychedelic and watch it rise. Then you will understand. And until then you won't. It's a phenomena that requires experience.

 

I've tried psychedelics.  It is just more phenomena.  A trip is simply another arising in Consciousness, no matter how profound it may seem.  

I don't doubt that you've experienced Truth (although I question whether you would extend me the same courtesy), but I do wonder if you recognize the unchanging Awareness that gives rise to all your valued experiences.  Respectfully, you still seem confused to me.

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Shambhu said:

@Leo Gura

I've tried psychedelics.  It is just more phenomena.  A trip is simply another arising in Consciousness, no matter how profound it may seem.  

I don't doubt that you've experienced Truth (although I question whether you would extend me the same courtesy), but I do wonder if you recognize the unchanging Awareness that gives rise to all your valued experiences.  Respectfully, you still seem confused to me.

Nothing gives rise to experience. Experience is absolute and the only thing there is. There is no difference between experience and what you call Awareness.

You are imagining me.

[Shambhu]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing gives rise to experience. Experience is absolute and the only thing there is. There is no difference between experience and what you call Awareness.

You are imagining me.

@Leo Gura Experience changes, and therefore cannot be Absolute.  You still seem confused ?