Paradigm of an Objective World made of Consciousness

[GreenWoods]

These contemplations here are based on the paradigm of multiple bubbles existing simultaneously.

I mentioned some possible arguments for that paradigm in this Thread.

To summarize the main points:

• If one consciousness bubble can miraculously exist then it could also be possible that many other consciousness bubbles exist too
• If there are seperate bubbles, then it could be possible that seperate bubbles can merge into one bubble.
  And if it is possible that there is a mechanism that allows seperate bubbles to merge into one, then it should also be possible that this mechanism can work in reverse and bubbles can split. If bubbles can split, then that would prove the possibility of multiple bubbles
• You are Infinite. But not Absolutely Infinite. Because if you were Absolutely Infinite you would contain Infinitely many Infinity Gods. But you are only conscious of one Infinity God. So that's what you are. All these Infinity Gods make up Absolute Infinity. 
• There is no objectively real seperation between Infinity Gods because what they are is consciousness, that means the seperatation is made of unconsciousness and therefore in a sense doesn't exist. 
  But relative to your own Infinitude this seperation is real.
  But relative to Absolute Infinity this seperation is not real. In that sense it is One.

 

 

Now about the topic of this post.

Let's say there are ten bubbles and each bubble is in formless consciousness. 

And then all ten bubbles merge. Then it's in a sense a larger bubble of pure formlessness, and it's all you.

So up to this point I was thinking that for example with Brahman consciousness, what is happening is that your consciousness shapeshifts into Brahman Consciousness. 

But what if what is actually happening is that your bubble merges with a giant other bubble and this is the experience of Brahman consciousness. And then when you get back to human consciousness, you are again splitting off from that Brahman bubble, in a very seamless way.

 

And here a big contemplative breakthrough for me:

There are some aspects of the bubble paradigm that are a bit confusing for me.

• How is it possible that bubbles exist seperatly and disconnected from another. How can they be separated.
• If they truly are seperated then it should be possible that they can be 100% sovereign and independent of ohter bubbles. But based on my intuition I don't think that's the case
• Bubbles can't directly interact with each other. There is no direct actual cause and effect between bubbles. There is only apparent cause and effect if bubbles decide to imagine according to what is happening in other bubbles. Therefore this simultaneous bubble paradigm can feel alienating. 

 

BUT I just had an idea.

I was writing about how you might actually merge with a Brahman bubble when you are in Brahman consciousness. 

WHAT IF whenever you interact with ANYTHING, you are also merging with that on some level. Not the same merger as with Brahman consciousness, but still a kind of merger. 

Merger in the sense that these appearances are not just a product of your subjective imagination, but that they are ACTUALLY and OBJECTIVELY co-created with other bubbles together.

(It is not a full conscious merger as with the example of Brahman merger because then the content of other bubbles would be in your bubble)

And this is happening with all bubbles that you are around. So right now your experience is not your personal imagination but an actual objective co-creation of many bubbles (other people, chair, air, atoms,...).

This would mean that your experience is no longer purely subjective. This would again be some kind of objective reality.

Your consciousness is a part of that objective reality. And when you merge with for example Brahman Consciousness, then you are actually merging with another consciousness that is part of this objective consciousness reality.

 

Comparing the 3 non-solipsistic paradigms:

- Material paradigm:

• Objective reality independent of consciousness 
• Cause and effect are real
• You are not sovereign 
• Direct interaction is possible
• You are disconnected from reality. What you see and hear.... are just hallucinations in a brain and not direct raw reality
• Reality is made of atoms

 

- Bubble paradigm:

• Subjective reality dependent on consciousness 
• Cause and effect within one bubble as well as between bubbles is illusionary. There can be the illuson of cause and effecr if consciousness decides to imagine according to how it would be if cause and effect were real
• Direct interaction is not possible 
• You are fully connected with what is (your bubble), you are what is
• Reality is made of consciousness 
• Infinitely many bubbles exist simultaneously, but disconnected from each other. Each bubble kind of floats in 'space' or maybe in non-existence (non-existence doesn't exist, so only the bubbles exist, but they are still seperated and disconnected)
• Each bubble can be 100% sovereign if it decides so. That means other bubbles can't affect it 
• What you experience is subjective imagination 
• There is seperation in the sense that bubbles are seperate 

 

- World made of Consciousness paradigm

• 'Objective' reality dependent on consciousness. It's not absolutely objective because if for example all consciousnesses in one univereses turn formless, then that universes with its forms doesn't exist anymore. But it's also not purely subjective because reality is a co-creation between different consciousnesses. So relative to a group of such consciousneses it is objective.
• Cause and effect is real
• Direct interaction is possible 
• Reality is made of consciousness 
• The existence of seperate bubbles doesn't really exist anymore. Reality is kind of similar to the objective material reality, but rather than atoms it is made of consciousness. And reality is a product of what all these consciousness create together.
• Purely subjective realities independent of other consciousnesses don't exist. 
• Consciousnesses are not sovereign. That means other consciousness can have an impact on another consciousness, whether that consciousness wants that or not
• You are what reality is made of.  So you are directly connected with what is happening. (Unlike with the material paradigm)
• What you experience is collective imagination. 
• There is no real seperation. Consciousnessnes are One, they are not disconnected 

 

 

Just some contemplations...

Edited May 18, 2022 by GreenWoods

[machiavelli]

@GreenWoods This is all mental masturbation. 

Until you directly become conscious off something and figured out whole reality. How it function. How infinity function. This is misleading and mental masturbation.

 

[GreenWoods]

From the perspective of God awakening this paradigm doesn't make sense.

But from the perspective of this paradigm, God awakening makes sense and can be explained.

 

This paradigm contradicts a lot of awakening realisations like:

• You are all that exists
• You are sovereign 
• There is no objective reality
• Your experience is consciousness shapeshifting into different appearances 
• Cause and effect is an illusion 

 

But there are also many awakening realisations that are still true under this paradigm:

• The seperate self is an illusion 
• You are consciousness 
• Everything is consciousness 
• Reality is Absolute Infinity
• Absolute Infinity is unbiased und unconditional 
• Reality is One 

[GreenWoods]

6 minutes ago, machiavelli said:

@GreenWoods This is all mental masturbation. 

Until you directly become conscious off something and figured out whole reality. How it function. How infinity function. This is misleading and mental masturbation.

If you only rely on direct awakening you can never figure out everything. 

Sometimes contemplation can be very valuable. 

Of course, contemplations are not absolutely true, but neither are awakenings.

You can be absolutely certain that your awakening is Absolutely true, and it still might not be true.

Like the example of Leo's solipsism. 

He was 100% sure it is true and now he says there might be infinitely many such solipsistic Gods.

Awakening is not a 100% percent reliable way to discover truth.

Infinity certainly contains scenarios of absolute certainty, but which are still not true.

[machiavelli]

@GreenWoods But contemplation without direct conscious of is mental masturbation and is just assumptions.

I am talking about leo too. At one point he says something and other time he changes and completely contradicts all his teaching.

Many people are suffering mental disturbances due to you all guys.

Stop this mental mastubation .

Without directly experiencing truth by doing pschedelics you cant just guess and mislead people.

THIS IS DANGEROUS TO MISLEAD PEOPLE.

You are just mentally developing ideas in mind to explain away solipsism . Because you fear that it might be true.

 

[GreenWoods]

You can also be misleaded by taking psychedelics. 

High consciousness is not fool-proof. 

 

Let's say the paradigm of this post were true, how likely is it to become directly conscious of that via psychedelics. Maybe we humans currently aren't capable of directly proving something like that.

And only because you can't directly prove something doesn't mean to just ignore that possibility. 

You would severely limit yourself.

That's a biased way towards truth.

 

 

Also, all the "mental masturbations" of philosophers were not useless. There is value in conemplation.

[GreenWoods]

It only becomes dangerous and misleading when it is called absolute truth.

But I was presenting this paradigm as a contemplation, a possibility. 

Being sceptical and contemplating different paradigms and explanations is very important. 

[GreenWoods]

I just made edited the first post, and added a comparison between the 3 paradigms ("materialism" vs "Infinite bubbles" vs "world made of consciousness").

I think that makes it all clearer. 

 

The more I think about this paradigm, the more plausible it becomes. 

It contradicts some realisations from awakening, but all of awakening still makes sense from within that paradigm.

 

The biggest argument for this paradigm seems to me that if there are seperate bubbles and they can affect each other (for example in the form of merging), then this paradigm here seems to be a very plausible logical result.

 

Basically, these are some of the possible paradigms:

1. Materialism 
2. Absolute Solipsism (how Leo has been talking about it)
3. Multiple seperate bubbles/Gods and they can't affect each other or merge
4. Multiple seperate bubbles/Gods and they can affect each other and merge
5. The paradigm of this thread: objective World made of consciousness 

And this thread is an argument against the 4th paradigm:

"Multiple seperate bubbles/Gods and they can affect each other and merge"

So compared to this paradigm, the world of consciousness paradigm seems more plausible to me right now.

But this paradigm is not necessarily an argument against the other paradigms.

Edited May 19, 2022 by GreenWoods

[r0ckyreed]

8 hours ago, machiavelli said:

This is all mental masturbation. 

What’s wrong with mental masturbation? 

When you get the orgasm, you will appreciate the mental masturbation.

Cool stuff Greenwoods. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[amanen]

"You are Infinite. But not Absolutely Infinite. Because if you were Absolutely Infinite you would contain Infinitely many Infinity Gods. But you are only conscious of one Infinity God. So that's what you are. All these Infinity Gods make up Absolute Infinity"

This is wrong, you are the absolute infinity. Multiple times have I become directly conscious of being an infinite number of godheads, a somewhat crude version of this can be seen depicted in Alex Grey's artwork 'the net of being'.

 

As for this thing about many bubbles existing and there being an objective reality, this can be directly disproven by increasing your consciousness.

You seem to think cause and effect are real, that there are some real laws at work. This is false. You can break any constraint you have self-imposed on yourself by increasing your consciousness. I have violated the laws of physics multiple times in ways that had lasting effect on my reality simply by becoming more conscious and realizing their unreality. If you do this yourself there will be no illusion of 'other' bubbles or some objective world left. 

 

[GreenWoods]

14 hours ago, amanen said:

"You are Infinite. But not Absolutely Infinite. Because if you were Absolutely Infinite you would contain Infinitely many Infinity Gods. But you are only conscious of one Infinity God. So that's what you are. All these Infinity Gods make up Absolute Infinity"

This is wrong, you are the absolute infinity. Multiple times have I become directly conscious of being an infinite number of godheads, a somewhat crude version of this can be seen depicted in Alex Grey's artwork 'the net of being'.

I don't think that one 'being' can be conscious of all of Absolute Infinity at once.

Because that is only possible if all bubbles/parts/Gods of Absolute Infinity merge into one bubble/consciousness. (This combined bubble could then shapeshift into Infinite Consciousness, or it could shapeshift into anything else, like the appearances of infinitely many bubbles or Gods simultaneously).

And I think that is not possible because due to the nature of Absolute Infinity, there would always be infinitely many more bubbles and Gods that haven't merged yet. 

So in case that is true, you might have been conscious of infinitely many Gods, but there were still Infinitely many Gods that you weren't conscious of, therefore you weren't conscious of ALL of Absolute Infinity and therefore you aren't Absolute Infinity. 

 

But in case it is indeed possible that ALL consciousnesses/bubbles can merge into one consciousness simultaneously, then it is possible that you actually are ALL of Absolute Infinity right now.

But even if this scenario is possble, it is far more likely that there are still Infinitely many more that haven't merged yet (even though they could) and it just feels like all parts have already merged.

So the probability of you being ALL of Absolute Infinity is infinitely small.

 

All what I just wrote is based on the assumption that Absolute Infinity can be or is made of infinitely many consciousnesses. If Absolute Infinity works like Solipsism like Leo has been saying in the past, then these arguments are of course meaningless.

14 hours ago, amanen said:

As for this thing about many bubbles existing and there being an objective reality, this can be directly disproven by increasing your consciousness.

You seem to think cause and effect are real, that there are some real laws at work. This is false. You can break any constraint you have self-imposed on yourself by increasing your consciousness. I have violated the laws of physics multiple times in ways that had lasting effect on my reality simply by becoming more conscious and realizing their unreality. If you do this yourself there will be no illusion of 'other' bubbles or some objective world left. 

I've been in very high states of consciousness and was certain of all of that, including solipsism.

If Reality is Infinite, then it contains states of Infinite consciousness where you become conscious of something that is Absolutely true and it 'feels' Absolutely true.

But Infinity also contains states of Infinite consciousness where you become conscious of something that is not Absolutely ture, but it 'feels' Absolutely true, EXACTLY as true and convincing as these other states of something that is indeed Absolutely true. 

So how do you distinguish these two states?

That's what started my doubt in solipsism.

 

Even someone like Leo is not immune to that problem. He was completely sure solipsism is true and now he says other Gods could be out there too.

 

 

The paradigm of "an objective world made of consciousness" certainly allwos for violation of physical laws. Everything is consciousness after all.

If you levitate then there is still a cause, even if it's just the power of your mind. (One part of consciousness interacting with another part of consciousness)

But I need to contemplate more about this cause and effect concept.

Since I had my first awakenings maybe 2 and half years ago I was convinced cause and effect is an illusion.

So this would be a paradigm shift for me and I need to think this new paradigm through more deeply.

[The0Self]

What the separate self is at the most fundamental level, in the realm of consciousness and discernibility, is pure consciousness.

But of course, there is no separate self.

 

When consciousness becomes absolute (or rather all delusion is dispelled), something else is revealed that is certainly not consciousness (there's no way to imagine it, and certainly not while having preconceptions that it is consciousness) -- it's the absolutely-most fundamental, and it's un-expectable. It's not even in time -- the time/consciousness(subject)/perception(object) tripod is only a reflection of it.

Again, consciousness is what the separate self is at the most fundamental level... But there is no separate self.

You could say there's only the sole beholder, but there's nothing to see, since there are no parts to view. "Non-relative awareness" one could say, but it's too close for "consciousness-of" to be possible. It's pure intimacy and timeless, and not in consciousness.

It's not that consciousness is false -- it's what is -- truly, it's more like it's just another sense like any of the others; seeing, hearing, feeling.

Edited May 18, 2022 by The0Self

[amanen]

27 minutes ago, GreenWoods said:

I don't think that one 'being' can be conscious of all of Absolute Infinity at once.

Because that is only possible if all bubbles/parts/Gods of Absolute Infinity merge into one bubble/consciousness. (This combined bubble could then shapeshift into Infinite Consciousness, or it could shapeshift into anything else, like the appearances of infinitely many bubbles or Gods simultaneously).

And I think that is not possible because due to the nature of Absolute Infinity, there would always be infinitely many more bubbles and Gods that haven't merged yet. 

 

But in case it is indeed possible that ALL consciousnesses/bubbles can merge into one consciousness simultaneously, then it is possible that you actually are ALL of Absolute Infinity right now.

But even if this scenario is possble, it is far more likely that there are still Infinitely many more that haven't merged yet (even though they could) and it just feels like all parts have already merged.

So the probability of you being ALL of Absolute Infinity is infinitely small.

 

You are assuming two things.

One is that you are a limited being, and second that there are other bubbles of consciousness of other limited beings that could be merged.

There are no limited beings, you are simply God in it's full power.

You can become directly conscious of being the whole Absolute Infinity with nothing left out from it.

[GreenWoods]

@The0Self whatever it is you are describing, it would have to be something within consciousness, or something at one with consciousness.  Otherwise how would you know about it and that it exists?

 

On 5/18/2022 at 7:43 PM, amanen said:

You are assuming two things.

One is that you are a limited being, and second that there are other bubbles of consciousness of other limited beings that could be merged.

@amanen Yes, I'm assuming there are multiple bubbles.

And you are assuming there aren't multiple bubbles.

On 5/18/2022 at 7:43 PM, amanen said:

You can become directly conscious of being the whole Absolute Infinity with nothing left out from it.

You are assuming:

1. That it is possible for all of Absolute Infinity to merge into one consciousness. I think that is not possible because then Absolute Infinity wouldn't be truly Absolutely Infinite.
2. That what you become conscious of is Absolutely true

On 5/18/2022 at 7:12 PM, GreenWoods said:

If Reality is Infinite, then it contains states of Infinite consciousness where you become conscious of something that is Absolutely true and it 'feels' Absolutely true.

But Infinity also contains states of Infinite consciousness where you become conscious of something that is not Absolutely ture, but it 'feels' Absolutely true, EXACTLY as true and convincing as these other states of something that is indeed Absolutely true. 

So how do you distinguish these two states?

 

[GreenWoods]

Relative to a high state of consciousness, there are no differences between anyhing.

For example there is no difference between physical (A) and non-physical (B) . Relative to a high state of consciousness, they are one. 

People say that seperate consciousnesses contradict Oneness.

Well, if the difference between one consciousness bubble and another consciousness bubble as well as the difference between oneness and duality is imaginary (and doesn't exist), then Oneness still applies.

In that regard Oneness and nonduality would include seperateness and duality.

[GreenWoods]

More thoughts on whether "there are no differences between anything".

I generally agree with that (relative to high states of consciousness).

But I think that applies only for a difference between two 'things', between A and B.

I don't think that there is no difference between existence and non-existence. That is a real difference. 

 

Or to put it differently, it is neither a difference nor no difference because a comparison is not possible because non-existence doesn't exist. So rather than asking "what is the difference between A and B" this is like asking "what is the difference between A".

And yeah in some regard it is true to answer "there is no difference". Because there is no difference "between A".  A is A.