If you are suffering, then 'no-self' & Truth is NOT understood!

[ardacigin]

Some people have the mistaken understanding that suffering is not contingent on 'Truth'. Or even no-self.

Then, the following sentence might be too radical for you: If you are suffering even in the subtlest of forms, you are not accessing the truth.

In other words: if you are sitting bored in God-Head in a psychedelic session, thinking you are so above this puny no-self insight - accessing so much depth and richness of consciousness - Well, think again!

The slightest bit of craving produces suffering. And suffering reinforces self-perception. As long as there is even a taint of self-clinging, you don't truly have the insight into no-self. You are in duality. You don't have access to this 'absolute truth' many people are so extremely sure is the case.

Without no-self as a basis, 'God consciousness' is already tainted by the illusion of suffering. And you need to go back to the drawing board and question what aspect of the truth do you REALLY understand. And what part of it is still filled with illusions of the mind.

Don't underestimate the core insights. Keep practicing and before exploring the rich constructs of the mind, make sure you know the big picture deeply and clearly.

----

Much love,

Arda

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by ardacigin

[Vincent S]

Yes, precisely right. Thank you for sharing ??✨

[Leo Gura]

The problem with this view is that all your so-called enlightened teachers will suffer if you hit them over the head with a hammer.

So you are setting a virtually impossible standard for anyone to meet. By this standard no one knows Truth, no one knows God, no one is awake. And this is false. Awakening and Truth-realization is independent of suffering. You can realize no-self and still suffer.

If you doubt this, think of Christ on the Cross. You think he didn't suffer? Don't kid yourself.

So are you going to deny Christ awakening and truth because he suffered?

You see how silly this gets?

Of course if you suffer easily that shows that there is much more work you could do on yourself. But it doesn't invalidate any awakenings or realizations you've had.

Suffering is part of Absolute Truth. And just because you're not suffering also doesn't mean you're consciousness of the highest truths. This conflation of suffering and moral purity with awakening or truth is very problematic for students in this work. It creates a lot of wrong expectations which will never get met. Stop thinking that awakening or God-realization will make you macho, stoic, infallible, and morally perfect. It won't. Consciousness of Truth is just that, nothing more. You could still be addicted to whatever. If you don't think awakened people have addictions and cravings, you're kidding yourself.

What's not wise is setting up simplistic litmus tests for consciousness of Truth. Like, for example, you are not conscious of Truth unless you can sit still cross-legged for 4 hours without flinching. This is a human-made litmus test which says nothing about one's consciousness of Truth. Truth is not testable by any such litmus test. All it takes to be conscious of Truth is to be conscious of Truth. Nothing more. If you are conscious of Truth but cannot sit still for more than 1 minute, you are still conscious of Truth. You just haven't trained your mind and body to meet some spiritual ideal you have set for yourself.

I suffer plenty. But it doesn't make my awakenings any less real or valid.

[Inliytened1]

 When you become Absolute Truth there is no suffering...or in a state of God Consciousness there is no suffering.  But in a finite state one can still suffer.  In this state then It is through understanding that they can avoid suffering.  So just because you are enlightened doesn't mean you have rid yourself of all suffering.  Expanding your baseline is what will really minimize your amount of suffering.  Enlightenment does expand your baseline but then you can then slip back down so it's a continual process.  But the more wisdom you gain the less you will suffer.  Because all suffering is of the mind and of the ego.  But as your wisdom expands you really can take a meta view on this and rise above it.

[Consilience]

@Leo Gura Your standards of the enlightened mind and in general, enlightenment, are way too low. 
 

 

[RMQualtrough]

I don't really think it's possible to not suffer, and I can explain... Of course there are people who self immolate or w.e. and can perform pain-defying feats.

But the reason I don't think you can actually escape suffering is because any possible thing is the unfolding of reality, and appearance... So when you are retreating far back being the passive observer, things of all sorts still appear. Negative reactions are themselves appearances right? And they can and will just happen as reality unfolds exactly as it does and should and will........

It's just adding or not adding an interpretation to a sheer appearance, which might be pain for ex. Blood tests freak me out...

[Salvijus]

Suffering is self made. Only a moron would cause suffering to himself for no reason by resisting life. So if you're suffering, you're a moron. Maybe a god realized moron, but still a moron

Edited May 17, 2022 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

And anyways, suffering is caused by ignorance. So if u suffer, how can u call yourself enlightened(free from ingnorance)? Radiculitis levels of logic.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Salvijus

[Gesundheit2]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I suffer plenty. But it doesn't make my awakenings any less real or valid.

Actually it makes me question your level of attainment/embodiment. The more conscious I am getting, the less I am suffering in general. That doesn't mean I don't suffer at all, or that I imagine someday I will stop suffering for good, that's silly. Mild suffering is okay, and it's actually good because it creates the necessary contrast for me to recognize pleasure and appreciate it. But suffering plenty is an indicator of something being wrong that needs to be fixed. So, if you do suffer a lot, you should be wary that you are not as advanced as you think you are. And in my opinion the same goes for those who claim that they don't suffer at all, or that 0 suffering is the goal of spiritual work. It's fishy and not realistic.

[Consilience]

@ardacigin Thank you for such a clear, concise and helpful message friend. I have no doubt it will resonate with many. Much love ❤️

[Preety_India]

Is it given that those who arrive at the truth won't suffer? 

 

[ardacigin]

@Leo Gura 

As you are doing contemplation and observation at the peak of the 5 Meo session, your perception, at its core, can not fully shake off the following assumptions: (everyone's default unconscious worldview). These are the foundation of all your motivations, beliefs and actions. 

1- I'm a separate entity, a Self, in a world of other entities. 

2- My emotional states - happiness and suffering - depend intimately on the interactions between myself and the other entities/objects/environments. 

3- As a self, I rely on my manipulation and survival skills to influence these interactions to satisfy my cravings in the hopes of satisfaction where my happiness will be maximized and suffering will be minimized.

--- 

All 3 of these assumptions are false delusions of the mind. 

As you investigate reality at the peak of a psychedelic session, you might think that this worldview is completely broken and fully integrated by all unconscious sub-minds to re-organize their worldviews. 

The problem is that only %5 of mind system is 'online' so to speak to receive the insights and integrate them. The rest 95% is still completely oblivious to whatever wisdom that arises in a psychedelic session. That's why no actual stickiness overlaps to your life when afterglow ends. 

The same 3 assumptions above continue to pervade your life, perceptions and understanding of life. Then you focus on a memory trace, a feeling of the peak 5 meo state to remember these insights, thinking they actually transform you. 

These assumptions are not going to revise themselves by spending the rest 99% of your life in unconsciousness. There lies the problem with the 'mainly psychedelic user, little to no meditation' style of spirituality.

And there are many other assumptions and contemplation points you need to work on after dealing with these.

Edited May 17, 2022 by ardacigin

[Arthogaan]

@Consilience Thank you - this photo is so fucking great. I had to quickly make a wallpaper from that. 

[Breakingthewall]

what's wrong with suffering? suffering is part of life. life is made of suffering. the fear of suffering that drives many to spirituality is pure cowardice. there is nothing wrong with suffering. suffering is absolutely divine. perhaps the most divine thing that exists. absolute suffering touches absolute glory

[vladorion]

21 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

what's wrong with suffering? suffering is part of life. life is made of suffering. the fear of suffering that drives many to spirituality is pure cowardice. there is nothing wrong with suffering. suffering is absolutely divine. perhaps the most divine thing that exists. absolute suffering touches absolute glory

I doubt you actually believe that when you're in deep suffering.

[vladorion]

I think people who say they want Truth for its own sake are lying.

If you intuitively knew that Truth is horrible, you would never look for it. You'd try to stay as ignorant as possible.

The reason you want it is because you're suffering and want to come back to your natural state which is free of suffering.

If you were utterly happy and content being ignorant you wouldn't even think about Truth.

Buddhism is just honest about this.

[_Archangel_]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Awakening and Truth-realization is independent of suffering. You can realize no-self and still suffer.

If you doubt this, think of Christ on the Cross. You think he didn't suffer? Don't kid yourself.

So are you going to deny Christ awakening and truth because he suffered?

@Leo Gura How is it indipendent  when suffering derive from the identification with the mind-body structure and all that comes with that?
I just don't see how full Liberation ( not a cheap spiritual experience) can coexist with Suffering. They seem to be opposite by definition.

Would you say that the psycological system of an individual can not full catch up yet with a Full Realization?
But how can it be a Full Realization then?
Are the Liberation(in Vedantic terms) and God Realization 2 different persuits? Only the first seems to aknowledge End of Suffering as a requisite tho.

Apart from the monk example above which is fitting, many masters have claimed to have completely eradicated suffering, the risult of which is Liberation. 
I would say that Ramana could be an example of a "Liberation that reached the flash" so to say, as many reports his carelessness towards his illness.

Also, the story of Jesus is not an adequate example as he is more of a mythical figure - who's story has been shaped by the need of the Church - than a spiritual master

Edited May 17, 2022 by _Archangel_

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Consilience said:

@Leo Gura Your standards of the enlightened mind and in general, enlightenment, are way too low. 
 

 

My standards are realistic and true to consciousness itself. I don't impose any human macho litmus tests on consciousness.

Just because some monk trained himself to ignore pain does mean much. It is not the evidence you think it is. Yes it's badass, but to set this standard for students is very counter-productive.

5 hours ago, Salvijus said:

Suffering is self made. Only a moron would cause suffering to himself for no reason by resisting life. So if you're suffering, you're a moron. Maybe a god realized moron, but still a moron

The epitome of toxic spirituality.

5 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Actually it makes me question your level of attainment/embodiment. The more conscious I am getting, the less I am suffering in general. That doesn't mean I don't suffer at all, or that I imagine someday I will stop suffering for good, that's silly. Mild suffering is okay, and it's actually good because it creates the necessary contrast for me to recognize pleasure and appreciate it. But suffering plenty is an indicator of something being wrong that needs to be fixed.

No it isn't. You have no clue yet how deeply you can suffer.

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So, if you do suffer a lot, you should be wary that you are not as advanced as you think you are.

When your life goes wrong enough you will understand.

3 hours ago, ardacigin said:

@Leo Gura 

As you are doing contemplation and observation at the peak of the 5 Meo session, your perception, at its core, can not fully shake off the following assumptions: (everyone's default unconscious worldview). These are the foundation of all your motivations, beliefs and actions. 

1- I'm a separate entity, a Self, in a world of other entities. 

False

Quote

2- My emotional states - happiness and suffering - depend intimately on the interactions between myself and the other entities/objects/environments. 

3- As a self, I rely on my manipulation and survival skills to influence these interactions to satisfy my cravings in the hopes of satisfaction where my happiness will be maximized and suffering will be minimized.

--- 

All 3 of these assumptions are false delusions of the mind. 

In a 5-MeO peak none of this matters. It all flys out the window. You could jump out the window and not care.

42 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Leo Gura How is it indipendent  when suffering derive from the identification with the mind-body structure and all that comes with that?
I just don't see how full Liberation ( not a cheap spiritual experience) can coexist with Suffering. They seem to be opposite by definition.

Conscious of Truth is independent of how you feel and how your mind/body is trained.

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Would you say that the psycological system of an individual can not full catch up yet with a Full Realization?
But how can it be a Full Realization then?

God awakens, then God goes back to dreaming.

By your logic God could never become a human because God is fully realized. But obviously God can lose consciousness, which is how you were born.

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Are the Liberation(in Vedantic terms) and God Realization 2 different persuits? Only the first seems to aknowledge End of Suffering as a requisite tho.

Yes, they are different. This thing you call liberation would involve a lot of training of your mind and body and emotional system.

I have not met any spiritual person who doesn't suffer when things get bad enough. If they exist they are one in a billion.

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Apart from the monk example above which is fitting, many masters have claimed to have jcompletely eradicated suffering, the risult of which is Liberation. 

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. Find me a real person who doesn't suffer. It is easier to find a unicorn.

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I would say that Ramana could be an example of a "Liberation that reached the flash" so to say, as many reports his carelessness towards his illness.

It is such a stupid expectation to tell people to be Ramana.

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Also, the story of Jesus is not an adequate example as he is more of a mythical figure - who's story has been shaped by the need of the Church - than a spiritual master

I will bet all my money that if you take any modern spiritual teacher and stick an icepick in his balls you will see him suffer.

- - - - -

This whole discussion is deeply wrong.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

I doubt you actually believe that when you're in deep suffering.

Whether I believe it or not while I suffer is irrelevant. the very nature of sleep is that you immerse yourself in it. To think that being conciouss of God will keep you away from suffering is to deceive yourself, it is to think in terms of duality. god is suffering. Blessed are those who suffer, because they will see God. 

you can stop creating unnecessary mental suffering, but it doesn't matter, suffering could always catch you up . the nature of life is harsh, merciless. when the time comes for that shit, we have to think that it is an opportunity to go deeper, that it is pure love, as horrible as it is 

think of Mother Teresa. She used to tell the sick: your suffering is God's love, hug it. She was right! then she got sick and panicked from suffering and spent money on palliative care: she was right too. nobody escapes 

You could be brave, or coward, but you won't scape from suffering if it come. You could accept it in a sportier way 

The no self is a great realization, but same time, you are a self. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[puporing]

Being able to suffer through things or not experience as much "suffering" is independent of having awakenings to your true nature.

One does not need to light themselves on fire to awaken to their true nature. This is actually quite toxic to promote, idolize, and judge others on and not coming from a place of absolute love, and therefore away from truth. 

In terms of suffering, almost inevitably if one didn't skip steps (this includes lots of shadow work which often gets overlooked), and does the integration work, awakening to God is the best thing ever, and almost certainly produces more baseline peacefulness/love/equanimity. But it does not make one apathetic and not able to feel deeply (probably just the opposite), which can include feelings of "sufferring" being one aspect of this depth feeling. Ultimately it's one's preference to choose to have these feelings or not. Nobody's gonna stop you if you want to be unattached and remain an observer in the dream for the rest of your life. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by puporing