If you are suffering, then 'no-self' & Truth is NOT understood!

[The0Self]

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@kieranperez @Consilience

What is the zen or monastic approach to something like the example below?

I've been reflecting on some early life and generational trauma and i've found some beliefs that I think hold a lot of space or energy in mind.

For example, I have an intense fear of shitting myself or even farting loud in public. I've noticed that i'm always anxious of this in the back of my mind. Not exactly sure how to resolve it, but it makes sense why this kind of belief would be so impactful. 

Do these kinds of beliefs just get resolved over time with practice? Have you guys dealt with this kind of trauma or does this kind of specific stuff get addressed by the monks? 

I know you're asking them something different, but just as an aside, you should be triumphant that you've been able to identify such a thing, because that's where the rubber meets the road in spiritual development. Any recurring intense fear, if it's of something you can't control anyway, is something you're repressing the underlying sensations of, which is concurrent with hiding something from yourself: the fact that you can't control whether it happens or not, and you're not even going to ultimately be harmed if it were to actually happen anyway.

[Raptorsin7]

@The0Self Thanks. Yeah it really does feel significant.

I remember when my grandma first shamed me for shitting on the floor as a baby. I even felt a similar sensation on psychidelics before, but it's only recently hit me that 24/7 a part of my mind is working OT to make sure I don't shit shit myself lol. 

I've been contemplating who would I be if I were the kind of guy who had 0 trauma around shitting and noticed some shifts, but I'm still not sure how to fully resolve it.

[kieranperez]

@Raptorsin7 Go to therapy. 

Zen and awakening has nothing to do about healing generational trauma. 

[Raptorsin7]

2 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

@Raptorsin7 Go to therapy. 

Zen and awakening has nothing to do about healing generational trauma. 

Why do people want to awaken and practice zen?

And the statement that awakening has nothing do with trauma is almost certainly nonsense.

[kieranperez]

43 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

And the statement that awakening has nothing do with trauma is almost certainly nonsense.

Go talk to actual Roshi’s and tell them about your assumption/belief that Zen fundamentally deals with healing and they will tell you to your face that that’s a bullshit assumption. It’s not true. Don’t conflate awakening with healing. There’s a reason Ken Wilber for example makes the distinction between “Cleaning Up” (therapy, trauma work, etc.) and “Waking Up”. Because they’re not the same. There may be some interaction between the two different processes that influence each other but that doesn’t mean that that’s what they’re about. 

[Raptorsin7]

@kieranperez Imo those people are retarded if they think that. But I could be wrong.

 

[kieranperez]

46 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do people want to awaken and practice zen?

There is no ultimate answer to this question as there’s no one way to. I wouldn’t lump someone that pursues awakening that grew up in a traditional Japanese culture than those that pursued it back in the 70s in America. Everybody’s path is different and yet I imagine you can find some similarities among a lot of different practitioners at the same time. You can make large generalizations by saying things like “suffering” or “wanting to know what’s true” but that hardly answers anything when you get down to the core of what motivates peoples search.

[kieranperez]

4 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

But I could be wrong.

Well you are. Go meet some real Zen masters and talk to them rather than just sit around by yourself with your comfortable assumptions. 

You don’t know that you don’t know what you’re talking about. 

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, kieranperez said:

Well you are. Go meet some real Zen masters and talk to them rather than just sit around by yourself with your comfortable assumptions. 

You don’t know that you don’t know what you’re talking about. 

Fair enough, I could be wrong.

But if you are studying with masters that are still displaying autistic traits like aspergers then I would say that you don't know what you're talking about either. In my book you cannot be a master and autistic.

 

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Why do people want to awaken

Curiosity.

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

and practice zen?

Good marketing for a fairly good product.

[Raptorsin7]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Curiosity.

Curious about what?

 

[Gesundheit2]

@Raptorsin7 That's the question.

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, Gesundheit2 said:

@Raptorsin7 That's the question.

I think they are motivated by dissatisfaction with life, and they have an unconscious drive to seek the divine and that's where spiritual seeking starts.

If someone was satisfied and actively engaged with life and their pursuits I don't see why they would be seekers. 

[kieranperez]

25 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Fair enough, I could be wrong.

But if you are studying with masters that are still displaying autistic traits like aspergers then I would say that you don't know what you're talking about either. In my book you cannot be a master and autistic.

 

You are.

The truth doesn’t have to conform to what you think. I know many people that have had enlightenment experiences at this point and they still have traumas, shadows, and other issues. That’s the reality. Enlightenment is about what’s already true. Enlightened people have started cults, killed people, and also done all the great things people tend to associate them as in their mind and also be totally ordinary people you’d never expect anything from. These are just your projections and assumptions. 

[Gesundheit2]

11 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think they are motivated by dissatisfaction with life, and they have an unconscious drive to seek the divine and that's where spiritual seeking starts.

Makes sense. But then again, there are many more dissatisfied people who never go down that path even though it's right in front of them.

11 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

If someone was satisfied and actively engaged with life and their pursuits I don't see why they would be seekers. 

My very first direct contact with the emptiness of life was right after I finished the 9th grade. I was so eager to come back home and play video games for the whole summer. At least that's how I was thinking for the whole time before that. Then, to my surprise, 15 minutes in, and I'm bored. It all felt pointless. All the waiting and the joy I was anticipating, it just felt empty, completely devoid.

Then I became serious about religion, until I got here.

[Raptorsin7]

@kieranperez Then what you're seeking and what i'm seeking are different.

If you are autistic and then at the end of your path you are still autistic then imo that's a bit retarded. But to each their own.

What does success look like for you on the path? Why are you interested in going to a monastery or seeking enlightenment?

Edited June 16, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[Raptorsin7]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Makes sense. But then again, there are many more dissatisfied people who never go down that path even though it's right in front of them.

I think people try different things before turning to spirituality. And most people are in pure survival mode, so they don't have time to reflect on their dissatisfaction. Imagine getting chased by a bear, all you can do is focus on running away from the bear. 

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Then I became serious about religion, until I got here.

Yeah for me I've been dissatisfied for almost all my life, with moments of satisfaction here and there. It wasn't until I had a peak experience on psychidelics that I really got a taste of what  divine life looks like.

[kieranperez]

11 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

If you are autistic and then at the end of your path you are still autistic then imo that's a bit retarded.

Name me one fucking person that's ever gone beyond autism or retardation. I don't know why you are so hung up on this or where you're even getting this silly belief that awakening or enlightenment somehow is supposed to "cure" autism. This more than anything else you're dribbling out is fucking ridiculous. 

12 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

What does success look like for you on the path?

Realizing what's absolutely true. 

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, kieranperez said:

Name me one fucking person that's ever gone beyond autism or retardation. I don't know why you are so hung up on this or where you're even getting this silly belief that awakening or enlightenment somehow is supposed to "cure" autism. This more than anything else you're dribbling out is fucking ridiculous. 

15 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I've done it on psychidelics, that's why i know it's possible. 

I've always had autistic traits growing up, and what I experienced on psychidelic trips completely wiped out almost all those traits. I could literally feel knots in my brain explode and all kinds of weird sensations in the body.

I'm still trying to understand and resolve these issues, but I have a pretty decent amount of the fog of war clear at this point.

Imo true healing will resolve autism. If you can't even resolve autism then how deep are your realizations.

[kieranperez]

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I've done it on psychidelics, that's why i know it's possible. 

I've always had autistic traits growing up, and what I experienced on psychidelic trips completely wiped out almost all those traits. I could literally feel knots in my brain explode and all kinds of weird sensations in the body.

I'm still trying to understand and resolve these issues, but I have a pretty decent amount of the fog of war clear at this point.

Imo true healing will resolve autism. If you can't even resolve autism then how deep are your realizations.

LMAO

Yeah. Okay ? 

You, some dude that has no background in clinical psychology, self diagnoses what you imagine to be certain "autistic tendencies" (all based on your own preconceptions of what that means), you take a psychedelic, stuff happens, you feel a bunch of sensations and a radically different change of state that is then laced in by your mind's interpretation of what's going on which is laced with tons of presuppositions, and then the experience fades and then you think "ah! that's the cure to autism! Psychedelics!" ? Alright buddy. You're for sure ahead of John Hopkins and all the leading neuroscientists over 1 psychedelic trip. And of course, let me guess... "they're just deluded materialists that don't know the power of psychedelics." Right...