If you are suffering, then 'no-self' & Truth is NOT understood!

[Gesundheit2]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can certainly make a lot of progress to reduce your mental suffering and anxiety. But it will still require a ton of training and work.

It's actually the other way around. It requires a ton of training and work to suffer and be anxious.

[Breakingthewall]

@Consilience

I think that the end of suffering will only occur when it is exactly the same for you to exist as an individual and not to do so. The closer you get to that, the less suffering there will be. but if you really get to that point, you will disappear, mashamadi. you can't live without selfishness. 

[UnbornTao]

Suffering can be radically reduced, pain will still be there.

 

[gettoefl]

world suffers so me suffers, the world is all me

me can't change the dream or leave the dream of my own doing but god is able and willing to do plenty

spirituality is bringing god to the fore in the dream, this leads to the mystical the miraculous the manifold

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by gettoefl

[RendHeaven]

There is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering which nearly all of you are missing.

If "eradicating suffering" is one of your top pursuits, you lack perspective and appreciation.

[kamwalker]

I don't see suffering as an issue, it's just you need to be conscious and aware of how it is manifesting. If you really observe yourself throughout the day you should notice how much of your suffering is self induced by thought. Because our ego's have been trained to perceive life a certain way it seems impossible just accept getting cheated on, or getting fired, or suffering from a major medical ailment and still live in bliss. But it is possible. 

[RMQualtrough]

On 18/05/2022 at 9:08 AM, knakoo said:

Why do you insist that they would suffer in that case ? I cannot understand it.

You think the pain would make them suffer ? Obviously pain is not the same as suffering. I remember you mentioning in a old video of a master receiving dentist drillings with no pain medication, with a "smile on his face". 

You think losing mental faculties would make them suffer ? If there is zero identification and attachement to the body or personality why would they suffer ?

You would have to get into a SERIOUSLY dissociated state to not want to GTFO when some dude starts drilling into your tooth. Maybe so dissociated you can't even feel your body anyway.

You could easily do so with drugs. I suppose some people can get in a trance to that degree sober. Def not myself.

[Gesundheit2]

57 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

I suppose some people can get in a trance to that degree sober. Def not myself.

It's possible with enough training/practice, you can learn to suppress your body completely, including involuntary reflexes and sense of pain. But it's very hard, and well, a completely useless feat given the existence of drugs that can do that in seconds.

[knakoo]

3 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

You would have to get into a SERIOUSLY dissociated state to not want to GTFO when some dude starts drilling into your tooth. Maybe so dissociated you can't even feel your body anyway.

You could easily do so with drugs. I suppose some people can get in a trance to that degree sober. Def not myself.

No it's possible to feel terrible pain, but if you accept it fully, there is no suffering. At least I have heard many people describe that

[Consilience]

9 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

There is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering which nearly all of you are missing.

If "eradicating suffering" is one of your top pursuits, you lack perspective and appreciation.

Your entire life is already built around deep, unconscious manipulation tactics to minimize suffering, and maximize happiness. To think you're not already trying to eradicate suffering is built out of delusion and a lack of clear seeing into your direct experience.

Moreover, while I don't actually disagree that there is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering, it's by what is gained through its ending that is only possible through its arising that gives it so much beauty. Suffering for the sake of suffering is hell. If you think otherwise, you have not suffered deeply enough and do not have the awareness capable of feeling into the collective suffering of other beings. When you suffer deeply, or actually step into the collective suffering of all beings, whether through psychedelics or meditation, the path to end suffering starts to become clear. 

And again, suffering itself is a sign of delusion, so if one values truth or happiness, no matter which, suffering is a sign that there is a lack of seeing reality. 

 

1 hour ago, knakoo said:

No it's possible to feel terrible pain, but if you accept it fully, there is no suffering. At least I have heard many people describe that

Yep 100%. Strong determination sitting has made this overwhelming clear in my own experience. It is actually amazing. It has nothing to do with pain suppression and everything to do with fully experiencing the pain so completely, it becomes a non-problem. 

[UnbornTao]

22 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Your entire life is already built around deep, unconscious manipulation tactics to minimize suffering, and maximize happiness. To think you're not already trying to eradicate suffering is built out of delusion and a lack of clear seeing into your direct experience.

Moreover, while I don't actually disagree that there is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering, it's by what is gained through its ending that is only possible through its arising that gives it so much beauty. Suffering for the sake of suffering is hell. If you think otherwise, you have not suffered deeply enough and do not have the awareness capable of feeling into the collective suffering of other beings. When you suffer deeply, or actually step into the collective suffering of all beings, whether through psychedelics or meditation, the path to end suffering starts to become clear. 

And again, suffering itself is a sign of delusion, so if one values truth or happiness, no matter which, suffering is a sign that there is a lack of seeing reality. 

 

Yep 100%. Strong determination sitting has made this overwhelming clear in my own experience. It is actually amazing. It has nothing to do with pain suppression and everything to do with fully experiencing the pain so completely, it becomes a non-problem. 

A lot of our suffering is unnecessarily created by us. It is there because it serves a purpose that is uncognized by us.

For example, anger is a manipulation that helps us cover a sense of hurt. It is a form of self-inflicted suffering.

[RMQualtrough]

56 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

A lot of our suffering is unnecessarily created by us. It is there because it serves a purpose that is uncognized by us.

For example, anger is a manipulation that helps us cover a sense of hurt. It is a form of self-inflicted suffering.

Interesting... Anxiety I suppose a defence against a potential feared situation?

What about depression?

I have never found a way to actually stop or overcome my anxiety, but it can become easy to accept yourself and let the anxiety happen without all the judgement etc. Which helps in a different way.

Edited May 31, 2022 by RMQualtrough

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

For example, anger is a manipulation that helps us cover a sense of hurt. It is a form of self-inflicted suffering.

Not necessarily. Dogs get angry too. It's a natural emotion. Of course though, when there's inauthenticity while one is angry, there is suffering. Even jealousy in some situations could be considered a natural emotion. "Unnatural emotions," so to speak, such as shame, existential fear, and conscious-aversion, are classified as such because they're based on delusion.

40 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

Interesting... Anxiety I suppose a defence against a potential feared situation?

What about depression?

I have never found a way to actually stop or overcome my anxiety, but it can become easy to accept yourself and let the anxiety happen without all the judgement etc. Which helps in a different way.

When suffering is dispelled, anxiety can (though it might not) still appear, but having anxiety won't. Same for depression. Anxiety and depression without the separation filter are resolved into body sensations and are not really even anxiety and depression anymore.

 

Suffering and authenticity are inversely related. Enlightenment is complete authenticity.

If you think about it, the self inquiry process is actually a sort of authenticity-blast so total that it causes a short circuit:

For someone doing self inquiry, they just rest back into "how do I know that I am, without any object to confirm it?" If it's something you're aware of, it's not what you're looking for -- Which as you can see is actually just so authentically honest to the nature of the seeking energy, that it short circuits it... Because the modus operandi of the seeking setup at its core also is "if I'm aware of it, it's not what I'm looking for," so you're really just making the seeking energy a truth teller rather than an obscurer. Doing this allows you to take that energy and retract it from the world and into its source, so that the habit/mind-system is temporarily (eventually it must be continuous) no longer fueled/lived by a veiled seeking energy... then you stay in the pure self knowing; the ability to know, without the requirement to know -> boundless consciousness / spaciousness / vastness -> falling away of mental habits -> awakening -> path to the end of all suffering.

Edited May 31, 2022 by The0Self

[The Mystical Man]

Suffering is inherent in life. But there's unnecessary suffering and there's legitimate suffering. Legitimate suffering is necessary; it's part of your growth, no matter how enlightened you get. A conscious human being will reduce his unnecessary suffering that is caused by the insanity of the ego, but I think even that cannot be completely eliminated. Adyashanti admitted that he still gets annoyed by his printer. That's a mild form of suffering. Does that mean Adya has no insight into no-self and truth? Of course not. We all have our hang-ups, because, no matter how conscious we get, there's still a fallible human being.

[RendHeaven]

4 hours ago, Consilience said:

Your entire life is already built around deep, unconscious manipulation tactics to minimize suffering, and maximize happiness. To think you're not already trying to eradicate suffering is built out of delusion and a lack of clear seeing into your direct experience.

Of course. But this is tangent to my statement: "If eradicating suffering is one of your top pursuits, you lack perspective and appreciation."

There are higher truths than merely ending suffering. This should be obvious.

4 hours ago, Consilience said:

Moreover, while I don't actually disagree that there is a deep intelligence and beauty to suffering, it's by what is gained through its ending that is only possible through its arising that gives it so much beauty. Suffering for the sake of suffering is hell. If you think otherwise, you have not suffered deeply enough and do not have the awareness capable of feeling into the collective suffering of other beings. When you suffer deeply, or actually step into the collective suffering of all beings, whether through psychedelics or meditation, the path to end suffering starts to become clear. 

I have at one point directly ended all suffering so thoroughly that I longed to forget this heaven, to re-experience trial & tribulation. That has completely re-contextualized this dream for me. Of course suffering is hell. Of course minimizing it is noble. But also, the fact that suffering exists at all is a miracle of the highest order. The genius behind this design is so ineffable that I feel wrong even attempting to express it here. But I know for certain that a dogged, one-track chase to "end suffering" is total silliness, peanuts from a greater paradigm.

4 hours ago, Consilience said:

And again, suffering itself is a sign of delusion, so if one values truth or happiness, no matter which, suffering is a sign that there is a lack of seeing reality. 

Disparaging suffering is the delusion.

We are free to end suffering or not, but this freedom is a second-order matter to the primary and ineffable "genius design" that it exists at all.

To use a Leoism: that God allows for (or even Wills) forgetfulness and falling asleep takes precedent over our egoic desires to only experience remembrance and wakefulness. The highest Truth is found in beholding and honoring the whole picture, so to speak, even if it means that 99% of your life is a nightmare.

---

P.S. If anybody reading this is going through a lot of personal shit, just ignore what I said. I am talking about realizations that are so beyond ordinary human existence that unless you too have seen "the other side," this rhetoric may be harmful to yourself or to others.

[Consilience]

12 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

But I know for certain that a dogged, one-track chase to "end suffering" is total silliness, peanuts from a greater paradigm.

This silliness is the equivalent of chasing after truth, and is already what you’re unconsciously attempting by going for “higher truths.” Whether you see the relationship between your attempts at going for these higher truths as a function of your suffering, or not is contingent upon the clarity you have about the subtle, inner workings of your mind. And Ill just spoil something - psychedelics aint going to give you the clarity to perceive the ultra subtle dynamics Im speaking about. 
 

 

[Raptorsin7]

@Consilience Don't you think the ideal approach would be to combine psychidelics and meditation?

I've done a lot of trips and they haven't led to lasting profound change so I definitely agree with a lot of criticism of psychidelics, but at the same time at least when I take psychidelics I know something will shift and I at least feel like I moved some % toward healing and releasing emotional and energetic blocks. 

Meditation can be very discouraging because there are so many sits where it appears like nothing happens. You just sit and you're stuck experiencing whatever you are experiencing, which I assume for most people like me is just an unpleasant state of being. 

The way I see psychidelics and meditation is like this:

Suffering, at least for me, is contained as a knot of tension in the head, and when psychidelics really work for me it feels like my attention zeroes in on the knot and eventually I can penetrate to some source sensation that when dissolved leads to completel perceptual shifts and loss of a sense of suffering that when dissolved feels like an unnatural weight i was carrying for years. 

If I were to just meditate then I can feel into the knot but there's never been any movement, save for one time in my life where I spent virtually all day meditating, and somehow managed to make progress in dissolving the knot, but if I do a typical 30-60 minute meditation where I'm just aware of the knot then I get nothing. 

According to this view it seems like you would have to do something to radically alter your state to benefit from meditation, or else you could be stuck just witnessing and observing energetic knots and blockages for years without making progress. 

[UnbornTao]

7 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

Interesting... Anxiety I suppose a defence against a potential feared situation?

What about depression?

I have never found a way to actually stop or overcome my anxiety, but it can become easy to accept yourself and let the anxiety happen without all the judgement etc. Which helps in a different way.

Could be. I haven't really looked into anxiety and depression yet.

Exactly. I think the best option is, before putting your attention on eliminating anxiety, you let it be there, completely. That way, contemplating its nature, and thus transcending it, becomes a possibility. 

What is the anxiety doing? 

4 hours ago, The Mystical Man said:

Suffering is inherent in life. 

First I would need to know what life really is. Who knows? Maybe suffering isn't inherent. After all, legend tells Gautama Buddha became free of it.

For now, the way I see it, pain is fundamental because of the body (nervous system, etc), maybe suffering not so much.

7 hours ago, The0Self said:

Not necessarily. Dogs get angry too. It's a natural emotion. Of course though, when there's inauthenticity while one is angry, there is suffering. Even jealousy in some situations could be considered a natural emotion. "Unnatural emotions," so to speak, such as shame, existential fear, and conscious-aversion, are classified as such because they're based on delusion.

I don't know about animals and emotions. Their process may be rudimentary compared to ours. What you say could be a projection. 

Those are all emotions -- I don't see why you'd want to distinguish between natural and unnatural emotions. No emotion is negative by itself so whenever an emotion is experienced it should be accepted and felt completely, without necessarily having to act it out.

[Fernanda]

Why we suffer:

 

[RMQualtrough]

@UnbornTao I think the anxiety is just anticipation of a threatening or emotionally distressing experience. If I talk to people, I may hold a fear that they will immediately attack me or put me down.

I've had the condition for 13 to 14 years, nearly half my life. I don't even try to eliminate it anymore. I just let it happen and don't judge myself for that nervousness.